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calblu wrote:What exactly does getting into a corner mean?

Breeding too tight for an extended period of time.

Yep, 12 guage! And another term breeders use is when "things blew up".
That is what happens after you breed yourself into a corner. Usually there is no going back from that point. By then the bad traits are pretty well set.

YALL BACK UP MY TURN

LOL! Very Nice!

liontracker wrote:Yep, 12 guage! And another term breeders use is when "things blew up".
That is what happens after you breed yourself into a corner. Usually there is no going back from that point. By then the bad traits are pretty well set.

Liontracker, call me dense but I was just wanting clarification on exactly what your vet is meaning. Is he saying shyness is a warning sign, regardless of whether the pedigree is tight or mostly outcrossed? Or is he only referring to inbred and tightly linebred dogs?

He was refering to tightly bred.

Thank you. I can understand locking in the shyness in that case (I personally prefer the word timid).
I would accept that as an explanation for some of the overly timid pups I've bought from other breeders that were tightly linebred (and which never made it into my breeding program because I *won't* breed to dogs with temperament problems).
With the litter I raised, that was definitely not the case. They had a COI of less that 5%* and that's nothing compared to some of these bluetick litters I'm seeing out there with 25%+ COIs. Many of those litters with high COIs seem fine if I can extrapolate from posts and emails I read that never mention anything about timidity. My tightest-bred litter was my first 2 litters (same cross) over 10 yrs ago at a 12% COI. Every litter since then has been farther and farther from the dogs I like to linebreed on, and I haven't linebred or inbred back on my previous generations (for a specific health reason).

So maybe I can assume that what I'm experiencing is isolated examples. That happens to me a lot --I consider it the living under a black cloud scenario.
I haven't had a pup shipped in in a couple years. Got a new one coming next month with totally different bloodlines in the first 4 gens than we've brought in before. Guess we'll see how that goes!

So liontracker, let me ask you this. Do you think it's possible to actually breed yourself into a corner **you can't get out of** with tight breeding? Wouldn't taking that "corner pup" out to a totally outcrossed dog solve that problem?
In the past I've considered myself "bred into a corner" only because I couldn't find the dog(s) I needed to continue closely linebreeding on those same 2 or 3 dogs I'm always looking for, without inbreeding. But obviously there were unlimited numbers of dogs I could use that didn't go back to those particular dogs, or didn't go back to them any closer than the 4th or 5th generation.

*(I look at 6 generations for my COIs)

calblu wrote:
So liontracker, let me ask you this. Do you think it's possible to actually breed yourself into a corner **you can't get out of** with tight breeding? Wouldn't taking that "corner pup" out to a totally outcrossed dog solve that problem?

Looks like two questions there.

First part: Yes, at that point there is a fine line between salvage and a total wreck.

Second Part: Obviously, the sooner a breeder recognizes the problem the better. An outcross will cover up the bad trait or traits, but they will still be there genetically. Depending on the cross, it will crop up again, just a matter of sooner or later.

liontracker wrote:Looks like two questions there.

First part: Yes, at that point there is a fine line between salvage and a total wreck.

Second Part: Obviously, the sooner a breeder recognizes the problem the better. An outcross will cover up the bad trait or traits, but they will still be there genetically. Depending on the cross, it will crop up again, just a matter of sooner or later.

Breeding is essentially a process of burying negative traits and working to intensify and lock-in desirable ones.
Difficulties arise by not knowing what the breeders before you were trying to bury, or what negative traits (or genes) may come coupled with positive ones. That's why every breeding will be an experiment, even if it's a repeat breeding. It's not an exact science.

Is it possible to completely purge a negative trait from a breeding program, especially if it's a requirement to stay within the same breed? If so, how would it be done and how long might it potentially take? (Wouldn't it be great to only have one negative trait to work on, but it doesn't happen that way!)
In light of trying to make rapid progress in a breeding program, it's unfortunate that nowadays most of us can't legally, financially, and/or ethically run large breeding kennels/programs like was done in the past.

calblu wrote:Breeding is essentially a process of burying negative traits

To a certain extent...if you aren't batting better than50/50 then there ain't much sense being there.

I personally think that man shyness is the easiest to cover up.
I think growly is alot harder.

liontracker wrote:To a certain extent...if you aren't batting better than50/50 then there ain't much sense being there.

You would hope!

liontracker wrote:I personally think that man shyness is the easiest to cover up.
I think growly is alot harder.

I believe I would agree with that. In my kennel both issues get a dog permanently removed from the gene pool. That's why having the shyness show up completely out of the blue, several generations along, and for no known reason is really frustrating. But I suppose that's all part of breeding animals.
I wonder if any bluetick breeder has managed to go 7+ generations of tight line or inbreeding with nothing negative coming out......

No way!

[quote="calbluI wonder if any bluetick breeder has managed to go 7+ generations of tight line or inbreeding with nothing negative coming out......[/quote]

LOL, if you find that breeder, call me....I want a pup!

Brady Davis wrote:LOL, if you find that breeder, call me....I want a pup!

If I found a breeder who claims it, neither of us would believe it anyhow! Guess we better just join the wishful thinking club.

Usually at that point a breeder has to either outcross, or bite the bullet and cull ruthlessly... as in keep the whole litter between close friends and really evaluate them.
One or two generations later, things will either blow up or produce near cookie cutter pups.

I think we should start a new post on this very topic and get the Clays' opinion, among others on the subject.