HUNTING WOLF'S WITH DOGS ?

[Pops]

yes & and there is a reason deer shooters sit in trees over corn piles in stead of chasing them w/ greyhounds and stabbing them w/ a knife. believe it, we are NOT past the days of dogs catching deer and while the days of wolf coursing may be gone here, they still exist in other places. what was done once can be done again. the only thing to prevent it is the lack of vision to foresee success. good thing not everyone is like that or the wright brothers would have never flown and people descended from our ancestors but who are not us would be scattered across the globe.

[Lynxhunter]

I've just got to say that I'm honestly impressed with the knowledge you guys got.
I've got to be careful here. New laws about wolfhunting were posted here so I'm breaking the law just posting here, but I think this tread have closed in on what I think is most interesting 'bout this, so I cant help it.

What did we loose on the way?
If you share my beliefe, that dogs/hounds are decendants from wolfs, whitch traits did we loose over centuries of breeding for special looks, hair coates and all different kinds of herding/hunting/retreiving traits.
Dan says a 100lbs dog/hound can't even catch a cold, how can a 150lbs timberwolf be at the top of the foodchain?

Hans

[driftwood blue]

Bob Mattscheck sent me this photo from bygone years to post in this topic.
hope you find it enjoyable

[Dan Edwards]

That's a photo?

[liontracker]

It's a painting from the mid 1800's.
The hounds are all Gascon Saintongeois, except
the one on the throat is a Grand Bleu de Gascogne.
Also the Canadian wolf is the largest subspecies.
I think that almost all the wolves killed by hounds were
the smaller subspecies. I have never seen mention of a dog
killing a 150 lb. wolf.

[Dan Edwards]

A 45# dog yote can stand up with a 80# staghound throating it. A 120# Anatolian cannot stand up with a 90# staghound throating it. Just facts gents, not romantic bullshit and theory.

[bignblu]

The photo of the Gran Bleus and Gascon/Saintongeois,killing a wolf is actuelly a photo of a 12 th or 13th centuary tapestry in old France. I obtained this picture during my studies on ancient hound history. I was the American Rep of The Gran Bleu/ Saintongeois asson. on paris for many years.
The hounds depicted are , in my veiw, about half Gran Bleu, half Saintongeois--- Pure Saintongeois are now extinct, having been resurected by crossing with Grand Bleu.

They hunted with very lasrge packs of hounds 1n the 13th centuary. I have documentation of grand hunts envolving several hundred people, cooks, wood choppers hound handlers and would hunt throufg huge tracts of land, withas much as 1200 hounds . I doubt anything with feathers or fur survived, but they were on horse back and were very good at controlling thier hounds.
They hunted bear, boar ,stag and red deer. as well as wolves.

I have lived in the North west and know how dangerous a 150 or 165 lb wolf is. But they are very careful not to bother large groups of hounds, they will rip off a straggler etc, but olny get in fights where they have the advantage,.

It`s my guess that if such a pack of hounds pictured caught a wolf, he may do great samage to the first hound but would sustain great damage from all the rest---But hey, thats just my guess!

[Nolte]

I got to agree with Dan on this one.

It takes a heck of a fast dog to consitantly catch yotes on crappy snow. In deep snow it can be over pretty quick. I'm not talking about some old sickly mangey one, but a real dog yote that has been dodging everything imagineable to stay alive. They use every advantage they can and you better figure out thier trick or they will keep doing it. If they are overmatched they will find a spot where they will have an advantage and can really put some teeth in a dog (ie culverts, brush piles, beaver houses, holes, junk cars, you name it). They are NOT careless when their ass is on the line and will only make mistakes when pressured. I've only seen ONE dog that could catch and kill yotes by himself pretty regular. Heck I've only seen a handfull that could really catch yotes. Now wolves will nearly wipe out all yotes in the area, so what does that say about their abilities.

Now a Wolf is a well oversized version of a yote with a greater tendancy of being pissed off. Any confrontation with a wolf and dog has the odds well in the wolf's favor. Unless some added "high power" is brought to the dogs side in the equation they are going to lose and lose bad. A lone wolf or a sickly one might even the odds, but I wouldn't bet on it. I've seen what they can do to tough bear dogs and it's not pretty. Let's face it, they ARE the Apex predator of the animal world and can/will rip bears right out of dens and kill them.

If you guys want to test the waters on this I'd suggest buying a couple extra shovels, your'e going to need them.

[liontracker]

Bob

If your time frame of 12th to 13th century is correct, then the mixed pack from that era intrigues me.
If so, then they are indeed Hounds of Saintonge and a Grand Bleu.

I was writing of the Gascon Saintongeois, not the Hound of Saintonge. Following is a breed history from the net:

HISTORY

This breed was created by Baron Joseph de Carayon-LaTour of Chateau Virelade, who came into possession of the only specimens of the Saintongeois hound to survive the French Revolution (one female and two males). (The Saintongeois is now considered an extinct breed.) These he mated with Grand Bleu de Gascognes from the kennel of the Baron de Ruble. The first-generation offspring were of such magnificent quality that the two men continued to breed in such manner, and the resulting descendants were given the name "Grand Gascon-Saintongeois".

The confusion seems to be in the american translation. The Hound of Saintonge was translated to the Saintongeois hound.

The Gascon Saintongeois is the current breed. They originated with LaTours' first cross in 1845. So the hounds in the pic could be either pure or crosses.

[bignblu]

I presented the photo of the ancient French hounds, just because it fit the topic. As a ghound histotian I have loads of info on the hounds of France
As for putting one of my hounds, that are as large or larger than Gran Blues on a wolf---Never!!I think too much of my hounds than to be so foolish. I have spent much time in British Columbia with ,perhaps the three foremost athorities on wolves, the Lay family. One of my hounds, sold to a freind was killed and almost entirely eaten by wolves. No Sir, I know that hunting wolves wit hounds would be stupid.
I`m sure that the ancient renchmen had hoards of hounds to replace those killed in action.

[liontracker]

BnB

I would like to discuss the GS breed with you in another post,
so as to keep from hijacking this one too much.
Please start it off for me. Thanks.