BigGameHoundsmen.com

phil sorry for your loss

FullCryHounds wrote:Everyoneone is giving examples of why nothing can be done to do something about these wolves. Just turn tail and run when you find wolf tracks. I guess I just think differently, when I'm confronted with a problem, I try and find a solution. Yes, wolves are smart, so use that against them. They can be educated just like any other dog, and typically faster. You guys have a unique situation that can be exploited, the fact that these wolves are already coming to you, so use that. The reason I've been paid the last eighteen years to kill wolves in Alaska isn't because I came up with every excuse why I couldn't get the job done, I only wish we had the same situation up there that you guys have here in the lower 48... wolves already coming to you.
And yes Ian, I guarantee you, I could kill 5 wolves in a season, I've already done way more then that.

What method did you use to kill wolves in Alaska? From what I know, Alaska is much more liberal about their method of take. Our wolves here, move primarily in and out of closures that are CLOSED to human entry most of the winter. They also live in the wilderness. Maybe your the wolf killing god, but there are alot of good guys who are trying to hunt them legally. Outside of poisening, illegally trapping, aerial shooting, hunting over bait, e-callers (all illegal) I don't think you are going to significantly dent the population. There is poor road access, deep snow, steep rough county...its not the same as getting paid to elminate them in Alaska. They can kill these wolves fairly easy by gunning them down on winter range out of a helicopter, but I'm not sure that would educate them to anything but the sound of the helicopter. Even that is difficult in the heavily forested areas of north west Montana and the Idaho panhandle. Really, the areas you can trap are primarily backcountry units with horse or foot access only.

Its hard to educate a pack of wolves that lives in our HUGE wilderness areas, closures or hundreds of miles of unbroken timber. They may not EVER see a person. They may not EVER hear a vehicle. You can't access alot of this area. They also can move in and out of our wonderful national parks and wildlife refuges in a days time and be right on top of where we cat hunt. These wolves are accustomed to people and are really not that concerened about them. They have had some domestic dogs killed right in the middle of town in some places close to the parks.

It is RARE that wolves do come to dogs trailing. Its not like they show up at ever tree and we just look at them and take pictures. It is the few times they do come to trailing dogs that this happens. I don't know that it is preventable. I really think we will just have to live with it. That doesn't make it any easier when it does happen. I spent almost 100 days running last year and had wolves come to my dogs one time that I know of. Compound that by all the guys running dogs, its pretty rare that these interactions do occur. They aren't just coming to every pack, it seems random and they pick the time at their choosing.

I know I spent everyday of dog season in the woods for almost three straight years and I SAW two in the Idaho panhandle that was polluted with them. I'm not saying that you couldn't do it, but I doubt anyone could legally put a dent in the population. Sure, we could all do it illegally but is that worth the risk of losing your hunting privledges at all or going to jail? They do prosecute this. Its easy to search and find the people they have thrown the book at. Some guys, who I consider good predator hunters, gave up hounds and just tried to kill wolves. They were not terribly successful but we do kill 200-300 in this state every year. They don't seem to really be getting educated. I think they travel too much and have too many places where they are safe from any harrassment from people. But I'm sure a guy with your skills could kill a pile of wolves legally, do it cost efficiently, educate them to NOT come to dogs (which is breaking a basic instinct they all have), do it year in and year out and have time to cat hunt a pack of dogs on top all that.

You do have to make a basic choice. Are you going to cat hunt your dogs even if it means finding an area where wolves don't seem to be as active...or...are you going to spend your limited (most of us have other jobs as well) time trying to kill a wolf or two when the success rate (given method of harvest limitations) is terribly low? Your right, most of us choose to move on and try to make a dog instead of throwing effort after foolishness. There are plenty of guys out actively hunting full time and spend all season to hopefully see and harvest one.

Ian

I guess what I'm saying is, if you have some magical method of calling them (which they seem to get educated too fairly quick) or spot and stalk...why don't you share it with everyone? Those are really the only methods you can use in most areas to kill them if you can access where they are living.

Ian, you state “They may not EVER see a person”. then you say in the exact same paragraph “These wolves are accustomed to people and are really not that concerened about them.” You should read your own foolishness. All you mention is how its too hard, too time consuming and how you just can’t see how you could possibly educate one of the most intelligent canines in the wild that’s running into a pack of barking hounds is possible. You mention how huge your country is and it would be impossible to even find one. Didn’t you bother to read AND comprehend what I mentioned earlier. We had 8 wolves living here in CO. and somehow, by a miracle, someone was able to find eight wolves in this entire state and now they are all gone. Yea, it must have been a wolf hunting god. That’s the best excuse you can come up with? You seem to have it in your mind that the only way to do something is that it must be illegal. I’ve never killed a wolf illegally and you guys don’t have to either. Just start using your heads and come up with ways how to do this. Go back and read every thread on this site about wolves killing dogs. Not one time has anyone mentioned how they could do something about it, only how to run every time you find a track. Wonder what would happen if every time you and every other houndsman out there did find a fresh track, did something about it...other then complaining about it on the internet. Please show me one thread that someone up there has said, hey, lets get our heads together and think about what we can do about this. At least it’s a start. No one has mentioned getting any laws changed (oh that’s right, it would be too hard) or talked to your representative about at least getting some compensation for your hounds like livestock (oh that’s right, it would be impossible so don’t even bother asking). Is it not obvious what you could do when you find a fresh wolf track? You really should start thinking about what you CAN do instead of coming up with a hundred reasons you can't do anything.
Your right, it would be just too hard and too time consuming to start trying to do something now. So your only other option is to live with them and complain about it every time someone’s hounds get killed. I wonder how it will be 5 or 10 years from now, I guarantee you, it will be worse.

Dean,
I’m not arguing with you. I would just like someone to come show all these people who are out every weekend actively trying to kill wolves and they don’t seem to manage to get it done. No one ever said that we are not trying to kill them, it just isn’t that easy. Like I said, it took decades of concerted trapping and poisoning to eliminate them (or mostly eliminate them). When I have fresh tracks, we have tried calling or getting in front of them but there are huge issues with this as I have previously stated.
If there were wolves in Colorado how did they disappear magically? If they were there, they were protected under the endangered species act federally. So unless the Feds gunned them down, they were killed illegally right?
I did read your post buddy, but you didn’t answer mine…how would you manage to kill all these wolves? We have TONS of people calling, snowshoeing, riding sleds and trying to kill them. That’s how we manage to shoot a couple hundred each year, which I doubt has even kept up with the population growth. I think, unless they really make some big political changes, the only thing that will slow the growth is the decimation of the elk herds here.
We have two groups of wolves here in the state, I probably could have made that more clear. We have the ones that are resident or transitional in and out of the national parks. These wolves are fairly accustomed to people. They also have fairly short seasons where these can be hunted in the buffer units around the park assuming they are not in a closure area (no trapping allowed).
We have another group that live in our wilderness areas that probably rarely see a person. Idaho has the greatest amount of wilderness area in the lower 48 states if I’m not incorrect. These are steep, roadless areas that are difficult to access. The wolves in north Idaho, even with good roads, are difficult to ever see in the heavy timber. A lot of times, you can only see a hundred yards. When hunting is your only method of take, it is next to impossible in my opinion. Like I said, if you have a magical way, do share buddy.
Also, anyone who thinks we have not tried to change the laws is blind. It was an Idaho senator that got our wolves off the list so they could even begin to manage them. This was a difficult and hard fought victory. It’s a political issue that is difficult to control but there have been concerted efforts by thousands of people in Idaho and Montana to gain the ability to simply hunt them.
In my opinion, there just are not that many options. Fish and Game and our senators know the pressure of getting this under control. Gotta be honest though, I doubt it is on the top of their priority list right now with what is going on with the economy and everything in DC. Many of us have sent letters and made phone calls. I think they are aware of the issue. I just don’t think they are going to start letting us poison wolves ever again. More liberal trapping seasons would help but probably won’t fix the problem.

I have a guy I call every time I cut a wolf track. He and about five buddies hunt every weekend for wolves and have taken two this year. He kills a pile of coyotes every year and even a bobcat and lion on occasion using a call. He says the wolves are 100 times harder. In short, there are a ton of people out hunting these wolves legally with dismal success rates. I’m sure someone like yourself is probably better than 90 percent of these people. It is frustrating for all of us here who are hunting them, trapping them where legal, and have done all the other things you mentioned to try and do something about this problem to have someone like yourself act like we are just a bunch of losers who throw our hands in the air. I can assure you, this is not the case. Everywhere where there are wolves they have these issues with hounds…British Columbia, Alberta, Montana, Idaho, around the great lakes…I doubt you are the one with the answer to it all but maybe I am wrong. Come and kill five, it would be five less for us to deal with.
Take care buddy, I think we just disagree on this one. Without you making a trip up here, I guess we will never know.
Ian

sorry for your loss Phil

took 14 days for the story to make the Daily Mistake, imagine that. At least it made the front page.

Here is a real nice boone and crockett tom we caught a couple years back . It took all of the dogs we had to get this one killed. it was an epic day as the lion finally treed a couple hundred yards from the unit boundry just before dark.
I got a chuckle out of the news article. They said Roy was my 10 year old Beagle and I got a very interesting email from a gentlman from Whitefish who owned a 10 year old beagle named Harley. He said I used poor judgement using a rabbit dog on lions after dark. He was pretty upset to say the least. I invited him to come along and take some pictures of a hunt without a kill. he sent me a nice email back and said he would consider it. Imagine that.

I think what the guys around here are tring to say is that our country is heavily timbered. These wolves are ghosts. They see people, but people don'e see them. Another problem is they have severely limited where and how we can trap. Not on or near roads no snares no carcasses. All of the things it takes to catch wolves. It would be difficult to try and sidestep these rules as there are so many people in the woods, even in winter. Some are being killes but to take one or two from a pack does little good. Some guys will get better at trapping, but I fear they will cut the season short if anybody is having too much success. The other problem is we are cat hunters there is no way to hunts cats and wolves very effective at the same time.

Phil there is only a 150' set back on roads and trails that are designated by adminstrative signs or numbers, and 30' set back on carcasses visible from above.

I have been talking to some top notch trappers up north and feel that we can make a difference next year. Most of the guys around here are struggling to catch wolves because they simply do not have enough patience and there are some little things that are keeping them from catching. I have no experience, but plan on becoming a wolfer. I know it will be a challenge, but they have serious weaknesses and can be very vulnerable.

Trapping or snaring a wolf is not very difficult.
He's no different in most cases than your hound or a coyote if you look at the whole picture .
The difficult part of achieving success is PATIENTS and going at the task with a POSITIVE attitude.
Im not saying every person who sets a trap or snare is going to catch a wolf, no different than someone saying they catch every track they turn out on.
It doesn't happen, but that's a totally different topic.
You have to work at it and work hard, but it is not rocket science.
I trap and snare wolves within 100 yards of each other and manage to get both.

Look at your hound and how he travels, acts when he smells another hound, what he does when he takes a pee on a tree or stump and look beyond that wolf track you see in the snow..
A track can tell a lot about an individual wolf as well as the pack structure.
THINK OUTSIDE of the box..
I know, its easy for me to say but that is where I started and patients and attitude paid off for me.
ANY wolf can be caught, if you think otherwise save your time, money and the frustration and let someone that can get it done take your place.

Something you MUST recognize is.......you can educate a wolf in 2 seconds, and that will put you behind the eight ball.
We all have to start somewhere and we all make mistakes ...it's only human nature.
I highly suggest getting together and make a plan with other trappers in your area and you will be surprised at how successful you are when you work together and share info.

I've read through the posts here and there seems to be a very important thing missing.
I believe what Dean is trying to say and he is right in his thinking is, if no one is willing to put the time effort and imagination into killing wolves, then you will continue to have the threats of loosing hounds while lion hunting.
Has anyone ever tried to use their hounds to lure in wolves...maybe no one has lost hounds at the tree but if you can kill wolves that are moving that direction your making a difference..1 dead wolf is success.
NEVER think you can't do it, nothing is impossible, some things just take a little imagination and effort to make happen.
Huge tracts of wilderness, roadless areas, heavy timber and parks.....none of them should have any concern to someone that is willing to invest $1-$2000 in some quality traps and get them in the dirt and kill wolves.
REMEMBER wolves are territorial, they travel there area they are predictable to a high degree, and being able to figure out their travel patterns will take a bit of time but once you do you have the ball in your court..... they walk on the ground , they don't fly.
If it walks you can catch it.
How much time do some of you put into catching a big lion you've been after for a couple seasons,and have only found his track a couple times ?????
Wolves have a territory just the same as that lion...and they patrol it as it is their food source.
They patrol it to protect that food source and when they smell another wolf in that territory they will check it out..
Thats where it is your job to make that pack want to return to where you have made it seem like there is another pack over lapping there territory
The key is how much time, effort and money are you fellas willing to invest to see the reduction in wolf numbers.
Some of you may think removing one wolf is not going to make a difference, not true.
Think outside of the box and look at how many pucks get into the net when the one team is on a power play..?
A wolf pack is like a hockey team....remove one player and your chances go way up to win the game.
I know its easy to talk but it is very effective once you see how you are able to make the difference.
I am pretty fortunate to have access and trap 99% of the country I hunt lions in, but I spend nearly as much time taking care of the wolves as I do hunting lions and it has paid off..
I'll admit I hunt a lot of different country but if I did not hunt every time I found a wolf track I'd be hard pressed to see a lion in a tree.
Many times I walk ridges with no snow and hunt lions on open ground, I have no idea where the wolves are but because I am out there catching a few every winter I do believe it has made them recognize my presents.
They see their pack mates dead in a snare or wearing a trap and they know that they are being hunted.
Some food for thought and am willing to help any of you that are serious and want to make a difference.
The + side is the more you fellas kill down your way the less we have up here...

Lets make a difference and keep our hounds as safe as we can.

Think positive ...
Good Luck

Well said Brent.. One thing I would like to add is to put your differences aside with your fellow houndsmen and work as a group. Everyone mentioned how quick they learn to avoid traps and such, that is the biggest advantage you have. Get out there for a couple months and go after them as a group anyway you can and you will be surprised how quick they learn to avoid you and your hounds. You know your area the best so get together as a group and find a way to take care of the problem.

Brent,

I agree, every dead wolf is a succes. We can't actually use dogs to purposfully lure in wolves in Idaho. They consider this baiting and I know one guy who has been cited for this because he had dogs tied out and was not turned out on a lion.

We currently can only trap in about 1/4 to 1/3 of the state and they are doing what I would consider fairly well. We have killed almost 250 (between trapping and hunting) this year in Idaho so its not like they are not being hunted. No excuses though, if we want to kill wolves, people need to put in time to kill them. In the areas I specifically lion hunt, I have seen 4-5 tracks this year and I don't worry about them too much while lion hunting. We see them on on bear bait cams less than ten times in 4 months of baiting where I hunt so they must have learned to avoid them or there just aren't that many where I am. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen to me, maybe I have just been lucky.

Trapping also takes quite a bit of time and most the guys I know are weekend warriors. Trapping would require mid-week runs every 2-3 days to check traps and most guys simply don't have the time or funds to devote to that and dogs which means we do rely on other people (elk hunters) to get out and help with the wolves. That is not meant to be an excuse, just the reality we all live with, restrictions on time and money. I don't even elk or deer hunt at all anymore so I can devote my time to dogs.

I do spend time every spring and fall just looking for wolves in places where I know they are and that they like to travel in areas that I hound hunt. I would love to trap but the closest legal place to my house is almost 4 hours driving away. I can't afford to pick up that as a hobby as well! Hopefully they will get more and more liberal with seasons and take methods to knock down wolf numbers. They were very conservative to begin with simply because of the legal battles against any wolf harvest here. I think as time goes on, they will be more open to extending seasons and opening up trapping for more of the state.

Ian

Good feed back guys, I think we all understand and except the fact that time money and restrictions are a big factor the majority of the fellas that hound hunt have in being able to get into trapping.
However, get together as an Association like you say and throw all the differences out the window.
When you find wolf sign in an area you will know who to contact and that in its self will provide info as to where wolves are and it may be a boundary of there range and where they travel.
This is one of the most important pieces of info you can share with someone who does have the time to kill wolves.
That bit of info alone is very important, so your helping a lot by a phone call alone.
If you can trap in the area you can bait bears in you have a HUGE head start in the game.
Make a pee post 1/2 a mile from the bear bait or where ever the legal distance is....do this in May Oct when ever.
A wolf WILL return to check out that site, even a year later and if you have a pee post set all ready there when trapping season open put your trap in and be patient...
It took me 9 weeks this winter at one pee post set, 3 wolves passed it within 6 feet one day and never even looked at it.
Nine weeks later I had a big male...all I did was keep a bit of fresh dog urine at the site every 2 weeks or so.
There are enough of you fellas out there that have the time and resources to do it and with help from every hounds man and rancher you get on board your going to be surprised how effective you can be.