breeding with genetics in mind

[broncobilly]

CJC,

EPD stands for expected progany difference, it is a prediction of the difference between an individual animals average progany and the breed standard, it has nothing to do with sex linked genes.

The traits that they have epd's for in cattle are all easily definable and measureable traits. Considering that we cannot even agree on what makes up a good hound, or objectively measure the few things that we agree are important, such as nose, I really don't see how epd's could be used in hounds.

In the genetically identical cattle I have seen, there have been some pretty significant physical differences. If you add in all of the additional environmental differences that go into making a good hound, I think you would find that cloning would be pretty much a waste of time and money.

[houndnhorse]

Years ago I posted a story of the "Hard Luck Hound" about a dog that fell out of the back of my truck and injured the growth plate in his leg which caused it to grow outword. After that one day he had a bone in the yard and a neighbors Rot came over and bit him in the head and knocked one eye out. While at the vet he contracted Parvo, from which he lived through. Now genetics, I believe, made him tough enough to live through these things, but what made him become the very hound that I measure all others to? Was it being in the house and environment of nurturing that made him trust me to no end, or was it the hard knocks that made him become exceptiional? OR??? Was he predestined by genetics to be exceptional before any of this happened to him? Come on boys and girls, hunt what you have, espire for better, and listen when someone who has been there before you talks, because we won't move ahead if we repeat the past, or refuse to try something new.

[Rockcreek]

This is all very easy for me... I breed with PERFORMANCE in mind, genetics is just the cherry on top.

Take care.
Mason

HOORAY ROCK CREEK!!! Can everyone put there hands together for Rock Creek He breeds his dogs for performance what a friggin' rocket scientist he must be!!! I would like to personally thank him for yet another ingenius, well thought out, imformative post Now we can all stop breeding to the dog with the longest tail or the one who can stand on one leg the longest!!! Because Rock Creek has just spread another slab of his vast knowledge upon us....wich he just seems to do time and time again!!! Your such a great asset to this site!!! Why would anyone who breeds dogs wanna learn about genetics when we can just call you up and you can give us never before heard information like this "just breed for performance" I bet noboday has ever considered breeding the two best performing dogs they can get there hands on
"APPLAUSE" For Rock Creek

Thanks again "budz"

Do your parents know you're on the computer again...? LOL!

You're welcome for what little you comprehended from my post. I simply meant that if you breed for genetics, without regard for PERFORMANCE, you'll most likely end up with what ever it is YOU feed...

If you breed hounds like you do cattle, they'll most surely look alike, sound alike and be the same color.

Guys like YOU will never notice the difference.

IMO (That is IN MY OPINION) if you want good damn dogs... You MUST START WITH GOOD, DAMN DOGS!

The genetics poor dogs carry, are not worth talking about.

Take care.
Mason


P.S. Thanks for the applause.

[larry]

the genetics is where your performance, or lack of, comes from. Genetics is much more than the cherry on top, it is the whole frickin ice cream sunday. How many litters have hit the ground compliments of your PERFORMANCE breeding program? Yes, you said "you" breed for performance. Thought you got $50 pups from your buddies Go drive around town with your dog box.

[Rockcreek]

the genetics is where your performance, or lack of, comes from. Genetics is much more than the cherry on top, it is the whole frickin ice cream sunday. How many litters have hit the ground compliments of your PERFORMANCE breeding program? Yes, you said "you" breed for performance. Thought you got $50 pups from your buddies Go drive around town with your dog box.

Larry- Seems like I've heard your best shit already, typical Plott guy. I don't understand the guys that get their ass chapped by me talking performance as the PARAMOUNT factor in breeding performance/hunting dogs. There is no doubt that genetics play a huge role in producing quality dogs (anyone that breeds a litter knows that ) the problem comes from color-blind fools that tout a specific breed/line/type of dog on the merits of their "genetics" ie. looks, size, pedigree, style, etc basically anything OTHER than PERFORMANCE.

What Type do you breed? I ONLY breed the Type that PERFORM, based on sound genetics. If the "genetics" aren't there... would you make your "Frickin Ice Cream Sunday"??? LMAO!

Take care.
Mason

[sheimer]

BYE

Scott

[larry]

the genetics is where your performance, or lack of, comes from. Genetics is much more than the cherry on top, it is the whole frickin ice cream sunday. How many litters have hit the ground compliments of your PERFORMANCE breeding program? Yes, you said "you" breed for performance. Thought you got $50 pups from your buddies Go drive around town with your dog box.

Larry- Seems like I've heard your best shit already, typical Plott guy. I don't understand the guys that get their ass chapped by me talking performance as the PARAMOUNT factor in breeding performance/hunting dogs. There is no doubt that genetics play a huge role in producing quality dogs (anyone that breeds a litter knows that ) the problem comes from color-blind fools that tout a specific breed/line/type of dog on the merits of their "genetics" ie. looks, size, pedigree, style, etc basically anything OTHER than PERFORMANCE.

What Type do you breed? I ONLY breed the Type that PERFORM, based on sound genetics. If the "genetics" aren't there... would you make your "Frickin Ice Cream Sunday"??? LMAO!

Take care.
Mason

Huh, way to dodge the question. Seriously, did I see you type "LOL" in your earlier post? Oh my god! Really! Are you related to a guy from Wi. named Danny Calkins???

[horshur]

Here is my deal.......do we really need better dogs? and is it huberous to suggest you know what a better dog even is?

If a breeder cannot work on more than one trait whether adding it or elliminating it what trait should be worked on????

just one visit to a cutting horse barn and I can show you what single minded breeding for show does for that is all the horse will be good for and only for a short time as well.

In my oppinion there are plenty enough good enough dogs with conformation and drive already. Somthing is gonna break if the goal gets too single purpose or single trait.

There will always be a trade off..

[Dads dogboy]

Broncobilly,

Just checked my old Dairy Science Text book an it shows EPD,s meaning Estimated Predictable Difference.

Pretty much every trait identified in the Dairy Genetics is Sex linked... whether there is a higher percentage chance of this desired trait being passed on from the mothers side or the fathers side.

Little work has been done on Hounds, surely not as much as has been done with Bird Dogs and Greyhounds, but what work has been done pretty much shows that the Quality of mouth tends to be a Male linked trait, with temperment being more of a female linked trait. Several others such as nose and conformation tend to trend but no deffinitive conclusion has yet been reached.

Folks everyone on here is going to have his or her own opinion of how they want to breed their Hounds and some will recognize that they do not have the time or resources to breed and will look to purchase hounds from reputable sources. Either is fine!

So far in the Hunting Hound world there are only a handful of people who have been dedicated enough, with the time in years to be successfull in breeding Consistant litters of quality Hounds that fit their own Style and Purpose! And Style and Purpose should dictate what and how you Breed or Purchase!

But Breeding is the only way that you will achieve the goal of getting a Qaulity Hound. Either a dedicated long term in/line breeding program; or a happenstance 1 litter of a lifetime or one quality pup of a lifetime from a mating of two Great Hounds of unrelated parentage.

This myth that training is going to make a Hound is pure Hogwash! All you can do is teach a Hound to mind, to not run selected scents, and put him or her in the woods often, to fully express his or her GENETIC potential!

JMO

CJC

[Ike]

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1454


Does our genetic make up determine who we become?
Submitted by asavannah on Wed, 11/14/2007 - 12:39am

* Biology 103 Web Paper 2
* biology

Have you ever wondered where you get your physical or behavioral traits from? Well I have and I decided to do more research on this topic which is what this paper would be about. I am going to discuss the difference between nature versus nurture and whether one or the other has a greater impact on the way an individual behaves. This topic also became of interest to me when I decided to focus more on the study of identical twins who have the same genetic make up but not necessarily the same interests.
The idea of nature versus nurture has been puzzling to scientists for a very long time. “Nature” the idea that was viewed by most people in the beginning of the twentieth century, states that a person’s behavior comes from their genetic traits and that the environment has absolutely no affect on their life. “Nurture” on the other hand is the idea that a person will develop their behavior from outside environmental factors and not necessarily from genetics.
The study of nature versus nurture is usually tested on identical twins. Identical twins are also called monozygotic twins; which means that they derived from the fertilization of one egg by a single sperm which then created a zygote that was split into two embryos. These two embryos now share the same genetic material. It is important to know that just because the monozygotic twins have the same genetic make up, that one should not automatically assume they are exactly the same when it comes to their personality.
For example, in my immediate family, we have a set of 5-year-old identical twin boys, who look very much alike with minor differences and have totally different personalities; one being very outgoing, talkative, and active, while the other is more timid, quiet, and reserved. They also have different physical traits for example one is taller than the other. From observing my nephews I noticed that some of similarities they have are their physical features; they are both also very inquisitive and have a zeal for learning.
I believe that their differences come from their environment. Even though they live in the same household they have been placed into separate classes at school which means they are learning different material in different ways. Many schools actually encourage that twins be placed in separate classrooms so that they can form their own identities. They also have very different interests; one is very interested in dinosaurs while the other enjoys learning about the solar system. While they are still pretty interested in what the other likes, they will both return back to their original interest.
For the nature versus nurture test for the identical twins that do not live in the same household because they were probably split at birth may have a great difference in personality. If one twin was reared in a household that eats meat products, follows a certain type of religion, and is involved in numerous amounts of school activities; this child would have different views of life compared to the other twin, who may be a vegan, may follow some other religion, and does not take part in school activities. This example proves that the environment in which a person lives has a great impact on their personality.
This study of a set of identical twins that were separated during birth or raised in different households has not always had the same results. Sometimes they find that the set of twins indeed have similar personalities, occupations, interests, and mannerisms even thought they were brought up separately. This study goes on to prove that genetics does still play a significant role in the traits that are possessed by a particular individual.
The idea of certain genes being switched on or off due to particular environmental influences is called epigenetic modification. This means that monozygotic twins who share the same DNA can possibly be very similar or different due to the impact their environment has on their lives.
A study that was conducted with twins ranging from ages of 3 to 74 showed that the youngest twins have fewer epigenetic differences. This could be due to the fact that the children do not have much life experience and that they possibly follow what the other twin does. The test also proved identical twins that increased in age had a greater epigenetic difference; this is due to the different exposure each receives to a variety of things in life. The study also showed that twins who were raised separately had the greatest difference. But with age they also found that characteristics such as IQ became more alike as twins got older which then again proves that genetics still has a lot of influence.
From the research I did on this topic I found that neither nature nor nurture has more influence over the other but instead they work together. As we can see from the studies done on this topic, identical twins who share the same genetic make up are not exactly the same or totally different. They may share some traits and not others and now we know that we cannot completely rule out the idea of genetics or environmental influences because they are both equally important to our physical and behavioral traits.

[broncobilly]

CJC

Just how old is that old dairy book. You could be right about the dairy, my interest and experience is in the beef cattle industry. However, the ABS catalog, which sells semen for beef and dairy, define it as I described above.

It may be a myth that a good trainer can make a superior hound from a hound with average genetics, but it is sure no myth that a lot of trainers can make a cull from a hound with superior genetics.

I have seen more than one 4 or 5 year old dog that was considered to be just an average pack dog go on to become a much better than average lead dog when he was moved into the house and made into a pet as well as a hunting dog. How do you explain that change, the dog did not suddenly get better genetics, not did it get increased number of chances to hunt per year, only major difference was he now had increased contact with and attention from his trainer.

good luck

Bill

[Dads dogboy]

Broncobilly,

Text is from the late 1960's, just looked up the ABS Cat. and you are right in what they use, sure is not the term we learned. But meaning is the same. The Term is still refering to the Sex Linked traits that an offspring stands to gain which will effect them as producing females or terminal males!

As to the matter of bringing a Hound into the House, other than a Bitch welping, it ain't happening here! We have found that excessive pampering goes the other way with a Hound.

I do know from reading their books, that up East with John Kulish and in your country with OZ Washburn having their main Hound in the House did not hurt.

To each his own, if it works then it works; why the Good Lord made Chocolate and Vanilla!

Mr. Ike,

Thanks for the article! The more one studies I find the less I knew!!!!!!

CJC

[Ike]

CJC,

I think we all realize (or most of us) that the subject of genetics verses environmental influence (or nurture) leaves lots of room for people to argue either side they choose. That little article does, however, indicate that things around us and what we are exposed to has a huge impact on what we become. I look at it this way, if we were only what we came from then how would we evolve into something else?

Muhammad Ali was possibly one of the greatest heavy weight fighters that ever lived, but did he come from a family of boxers? Many great athletes excelled to the top of a sport although their parents didn't. Look at Tiger Woods. His father fed him golf and developed his interest at a very young age, and in fact grew up with golf clubs in his hands. It would be hard to argue that Tiger Woods was genetically superior to all the other golfers in the world today, yet he has risen to accomplish more than most.

I'm not saying that life experiences out weigh genetics, but I do feel that motivation, exposure, drive and desire has a large role in what we as humans or a good hound becomes.......

Interesting talk, not trying to push my ideas or change anybodies opinion just saying it's not always easy to evaluate success..........

ike

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I don't pitch in much cause I'm no expert by far. But one thing I learned from my Mom (too bad she's such a Hermit Crab now ) out of all her breeding and knowledge was this...

The most important dogs when planning a cross, or in a "pedigree" are the dogs that aren't shown there on the paper. We're talking brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, ect.

I would breed to an average dog from a good litter, than your superstar out of poor parents, and a sorry litter.

That's why a lot of people can stand around scratching there head wondering why there "performance" litter didn't turn out.

You can breed your two unrelated, mixed up superdogs, and maybe get one outstanding pup out of ten, or even one out of three different litters, IF ANY at all. Or you can breed two good dogs out of a litter, and family of good dogs, and get maybe one outstanding pup, and six out of ten good pups. All else fails those pups out of a consistent line will be like the rest of the family. The pups out of superdog are gonna be a big disappointment when your 'cross of the century' didn't pan out and not one of the pups posses even one single trait from either of their parents...

Everything is luck, but I like my odds a whole lot better breeding in a family/line of dogs. Life is short, our hounds lives are even shorter. I don't have time for one out of every hundred dogs/pups to turn out, no matter how good that one may be. Once they are gone, and they couldn't even produce something 1/4 as good as themselves, well, then looks like your back at step one.

Some people plan their success, others stumble upon it.

I like how line, family, breed, ect don't matter to a lot of people. Well then species might as well not matter. Should be breeding these dogs to Cheetah's seeing how they are some of the best hunters around. Maybe the Leopard Cur people know something we don't, just how did the cur become leopard?

[Ike]

You bring up another interesting question Redwood when saying a person needs to look at the littermates of a hound when breeding dogs. So let's look at a situation I got into ten years ago........

I wanted to raise and train a redbone hound for lions and bears and one day breed it to my LionHeart bitch, so I got to looking at options. My long time buddy, a houndsmen and big game guide for over twenty-five years, told me to pick a western redbone that was bred to hunt big game. I thought then, as I do now, that a trail hound is a trail hound and that the man makes the differents not who bred it, so I picked an eastern redbone (a coonhound) as a pup rather than a western bred hound.

The lady I bought my Ike pup from had bred her redbone to Harold Hoffmesiter's Red Bomber. All of the dogs in Ike's pedigree are purple ribbon bred coonhounds--every damn one of them! Bomber went back to Rusty Red, and Rusty Red went back to Go Man Sam, and on the other side was Parker's Reverend Red, and the Timber Chopper dogs behind that. But they were all coonhounds and not lion and bear hounds....

This lady had about six or seven pups all about the same size, and the two deepest red males was what I was looking at. Ike had a little black hair on his back and the other didn't, so the other dog was off the table for a show dog and Ike came home with me to Utah to become a big game hound. Ike would push a dirt lion track at eight months and open like an old hound while going down it. He would pin hole a track from the beginning and has been a solid trail, tree and rig dog since that time on lions and bears, and is now ten years old. He'll rig lion and bear tracks that none of the dogs in my box will start, and I've about decided that looking for tracks is a waste of my time because of that dog.

I remember me bragging him up when he was young and another guy was looking for that silver bullet, a dog like Ike that was genetically loaded and came from the same litter. He found one back east, the perfect red dog that the lady wouldn't sell me when they were tit weened. I spoke to the guy who was feeding that hound, and he told me he'd never been hunted cause he hunted July dogs on coyotes and had gotten stuck with that dog. He went on to tell me the dog was coming two and probably would be put down because no one had taken it in and handled and hunted it.

So was my Ike dog "the one" or had Ike gotten lucky and fallen into the hands of a man that was hungry for the hunt and wanted that young dog to succeed? Had that lady sold me the other dog would it still have been a shooter? Was I just lucky cause I got the "real deal" with my Ike dog? well, I'll let each of you come to your own conclusions but I figure any of those pups in that litter would have made a good, tough, hungry hunter a damn good lion and bear dog........

Mike Leonard made a comment about his young pups were all going to people he knew that would give those pups a chance, guys that were real hunters and guys that would probably help those young dogs develop into all the potential that he'd bred into them. I still believe that Muhammad Ali was a great heavyweight fighter because of his interactions in life, his experiences and environmental along with the drive and physical ability to get it done. Likewise, I believe that man who brings a pup along is as great an asset to that young dog as the breeder who made that dog..............

ike