BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

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RIFLEMAN
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

Ringo8585,

We don’t need CHC to hire a lawyer, there are plenty of us to do so.


Correct, legal representation can be procured by anyone that chooses to pursue the option. Obviously, the more organized the effort, the better.

Yes, it would be nice to see our dues go towards that, but there are 5700 of us.

CHC keeps the membership dues low for a reason, and the dues certainly aren't enough to fund the attorney fees for a long, protracted fight of this kind. That is why it is so important for everyone to participate in our fundraising efforts because donations are what we use to pursue these types of matters.

If we all donated $100.00 dollars to a fund and called and hounded Ducks unlimited, Duck commander, NRA, all the big hunting corporations and gun makers to donate, even Toyota, how many hunters do you know that have a Toyota? They would be dumb not to support us.

You'd be surprised at how many organizations and businesses want to avoid getting involved. For example, Ducks Unlimited refused to even take an Oppose position much less donate money for the fight. I hope you DU members remember that next time your membership fees are due.

Also, we sat back and waited on CHC to fight this battle for us the whole time and it didn’t do us any good. I’m not saying they didn’t do their best; it just wasn’t enough sitting back being respectful and not causing an uproar only works when dealing with intelligent respectful people, which we all know is not what’s in our state capital.

It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback when you know the outcome of the game. The simple fact of the matter is that fighting legislature in the political arena was and is the most obvious and most viable option available to us, and I would love to understand what you mean by causing an uproar and how it would have changed the outcome. The fact that the politicians had to twist as many arms as they did and break their own rules to the degree they did illustrates just how effective the opposition was at playing their game...we were winning the game until they kept changing the rules of the game each time they were about to lose.

When we do hire a lawyer, he is going to need facts. Unfortunately, that’s what lost this fight for us, in my opinion.


The facts were on our side. The data was on our side. Logic was on our side. They ignored all of these in favor of their own emotional, biased, and ignorant perspective.

They have a 20% harvest number because that’s what we gave them on tags because nobody wanted to deal with all the BS when stating they used dogs when in all reality it’s more like 90%!!!!!!

The reported number for 2010 was 45% rather than 20%. The reported number for 2011 was 47%. While I think your theory is plausible, I do not believe that 90% of bears are taken with hounds.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

mark miller,

I do believe there are many out there that feel like I do, that we were way to nice, the 99% idiots tear shit up burn it down and get on the news and scare the hell out of politicians. We on the other hand said please and thank you,held the door then got it slammed in are face.

I understand your sentiments and your frustration, but when you stop and really think about it, would the type of unrest that you seem to be suggesting really have made a difference? Do you really think that mayhem would have convinced them to side with us? I don't think so.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

meagain,

Rifleman,Give me a call I have found some possible help with the legal issue
Dan has my number if you don't.


I don't have your number, and Dan is out bear hunting for several days. If you can PM me your number, I will give you a call. Otherwise, I'll get it from Dan when he returns.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by ringo8585 »

Rifleman by an uproar I ment get the media attention bring the dogs to the Capitol and get on the news educate the public. And as I stated I bet it's closer to 90% if all tags were completed correctly! Also I know that people gave data that was never heard or used! Also as I stated I think you guys did a great job we just need more! We should call Toyota for backing they will lose revenue too if we get shut down. I'm open for all opinions we have to fight fight and fight some more they are cheaters and need to be played that way! Also I agree we should not air out strategies because they probably have a mole on here gathering intell. Let me know if I can help at all
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by yamaha »

Rifleman, It's a no brainer, that we don't post all our strategies to fight SB1221. Many of us (chc members, houndmen and women), are left in the dark right now, now would be a good time to somehow inform us of what is in the pipeline while we are still so enraged by the stripping of one of our freedoms. Chc could send out somekind of notification or something?
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by yamaha »

My two cents about the CHC Mtn. Lion pics :I agree it was a terrible idea to add those pic of the Mt. Lion because we do not have to prove to ourselves (houndmen) of what we help for research and what not, what it looks like is CHC thumping their chest showing off those pics. Come on. We all know what helped sparked this war with HSUS was the DFG commissoner on his Mt.LIon hunt. It just fueled their fire! "WILD JUSTICE" sure helped us out didn't. Even if a hunter that was being "shookdown", they left it as we did'nt catch'em this time , we we will next time. Rarely has that shown houndmen in a positive light, let alone any hunter.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by yamaha »

One more thing, Posting dead public pics is my opinion, not helping any cause. Do we need to thump our chest? And brag? Let's keep it clean and tastefull, Hunters and reasonable people are'nt the only ones viewing our sites and pics. I suggest keeping pics out of the public , keep it private? Ya we have the right, and in a perfect world it would not matter. But look what it help get us into now.?
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by outlaw13 »

Rifleman,
You stated the below comment

While I will not comment on the specifics, I will say that there was an outpouring of support for us from individuals who happen to be DFG employees, whether they are wardens, biologists, or administration. We have more friends than you know.

Your probably right but where did it get us. How did it help us that we have more friends than are realized? It obviously didn't. I can't think of a clear cut solution, but i know having those same people on our side and thinking it actually helped is assanine.
People wanted chaos and im not sure i exactly agree with that but looking at everything after the fact i sure wish there was one day we secretly went to the capitol unanounced but had news crews informed right before and we all stood in front of the capital doors with our hunting clothes and hounds and really made the front page of the papers and breaking news instead of the little fluff pieces we worked so hard for just to be virtually ignored.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by fallriverwalker1 »

outlaw i couldnt agree more i listened to the same people 30 yrs ago say the same thing dont cause trouble turn the other cheek ' dont cause a seen ' we lost that time ' we lost again , i say the same people some have gone new ones have steeped in ; the outcome was the same rifleman i dont know you ; but its obvious to me ; you listened to some of the old guard to bad ' i never got in a fight i at least didnt think a chance of winning . i was amazed when i asked diffrent hound people if they even knew who darrel stiengburg was ; 9 out of ten had no clue if you dont know who your fighting you cant win
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by ringo8585 »

Clint that was my point exactly to a tee. I think we should've showed up with the hounds and made the news puppies and children always make the front page. Fallriver yeah being quite sure helped out with the lions why wouldn't it work now that the state is even more liberal lol
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

ringo8585,
Rifleman by an uproar I ment get the media attention bring the dogs to the Capitol and get on the news educate the public.

We had quite a bit of media attention without bringing dogs to the Capitol, and I definitely don't think that 1221 passed because dogs were not brought to the Capitol in large numbers.

There were multiple stories in the LA Times, San Francisco Chronicle, Sacramento Bee, and San Jose Mercury News, and at least one story in the Redding, San Diego, Fresno, Glendale, San Bernadino, and other local papers. In addition, the story was aired on TV for the San Francisco and Sacramento affiliates of ABC. The AM radio juggernaut KFBK 1530 interviewed me for about 20 minutes, and I was on the air with another AM station serving Northern California for two hours. In addition, three public radio stations from LA, Sacramento, and San Francisco aired interviews with myself or other members of CHC leadership. Through the compelling evidence against SB1221, the political writer for the LA Times even advocated AGAINST the bill despite the sentiments of his editorial board and the paper's readership. No, we were not lacking in media attention.

Also I know that people gave data that was never heard or used!

It is difficult to fit a lot of data into just a few minutes of testimony when every second counts. What data was never used?

We should call Toyota for backing they will lose revenue too if we get shut down.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but I do not think it will get you anywhere. I think they are too big to even care.

Also I agree we should not air out strategies because they probably have a mole on here gathering intell.

You can count on it. This site is available to 7,043,431,345 people.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

Yamaha,

Rifleman, It's a no brainer, that we don't post all our strategies to fight SB1221. Many of us (chc members, houndmen and women), are left in the dark right now, now would be a good time to somehow inform us of what is in the pipeline while we are still so enraged by the stripping of one of our freedoms. Chc could send out somekind of notification or something?

As you correctly point out, it is a no brainer for us not to make public our strategies for fighting 1221, so we will not be distributing details in any medium, whether it be a hunting forum, email, newsletter, etc. We will be keeping the important details quiet as long as appropriate so as not to harm the effort to rescind the ban.

My two cents about the CHC Mtn. Lion pics :I agree it was a terrible idea to add those pic of the Mt. Lion because we do not have to prove to ourselves (houndmen) of what we help for research and what not,

Terrible? Really?

FYI, the pictures aren't there to prove anything to OURSELVES. The pictures are there to demonstrate to the media, public, and legislators the contributions of houndsmen and women to the study of wildlife. No animal is more celebrated in California than the mountain lion, so the fact that hound hunters play a vital role in the understanding of the mountain lion is something to be equally celebrated. Trust me when I tell you that our involvement with lion research really resonated with the legislators.

what it looks like is CHC thumping their chest showing off those pics. Come on.

This is a very short-sighted statement. This is not about anyone thumping their own chest. You need to realize that the website is not purposed for people that know about hound hunting. Rather, it's an educational aid for those that don't.

We all know what helped sparked this war with HSUS was the DFG commissoner on his Mt.LIon hunt. It just fueled their fire! /
Yes, Richards' lion hunt was the catalyst for 1221...all the more reason to juxtapose (through the pictures on the website) what California houndsmen and women do for the mountain lions here at home.

One more thing, Posting dead public pics is my opinion, not helping any cause. Do we need to thump our chest? And brag? Let's keep it clean and tastefull, Hunters and reasonable people are'nt the only ones viewing our sites and pics. I suggest keeping pics out of the public , keep it private? Ya we have the right, and in a perfect world it would not matter. But look what it help get us into now.?

I agree 100%. We wasted a lot of precious time with Senators and Assemblymembers having to disprove the lies that the supporters were telling about several pictures that are publicly available...pictures of things that no one, whether hunter or not, would enjoy seeing. In many cases, we are our own worst enemies.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

outlaw13,

Rifleman,Your probably right but where did it get us. How did it help us that we have more friends than are realized? It obviously didn't. I can't think of a clear cut solution, but i know having those same people on our side and thinking it actually helped is assanine.

If you recall, you asked about the rumor that DFG met with the Governor regarding this bill. You did not ask whether or not doing so helped or hurt us. I was responding to your inquiry.

But think about it logically for a minute...having members of the agency with the expertise and authority to manage the resource oppose the bill gives the rest of the opposition more credibility. To think that, just because the bill passed, their opposition must not have helped is what is truly asinine.

People wanted chaos and im not sure i exactly agree with that but looking at everything after the fact i sure wish there was one day we secretly went to the capitol unanounced but had news crews informed right before and we all stood in front of the capital doors with our hunting clothes and hounds and really made the front page of the papers and breaking news instead of the little fluff pieces we worked so hard for just to be virtually ignored.

And what compelling reason would there be for the media to show up for such a scenario? And what news angle or unique dimension of the issue does a bunch of hound hunters dressed to go hunting and with our hounds out front provide them? We are not the only group vying for their limited attention or airtime/print space.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by RIFLEMAN »

fallriverwalker,

outlaw i couldnt agree more i listened to the same people 30 yrs ago say the same thing dont cause trouble turn the other cheek ' dont cause a seen ' we lost that time ' we lost again

I wasn't around for the fight against 117, so I can't comment on that. But I should point out that the last three legislative attempts to ban hound hunting were defeated without, "causing a scene." You should realize that the politics and demographics of the state continue to change...for the worse. We are becoming more urban and more liberal, and both of those traits do not typically support hunting.

i say the same people some have gone new ones have steeped in ; the outcome was the same rifleman i dont know you ; but its obvious to me ; you listened to some of the old guard to bad

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. In addition to following my own gut, many of the people I listened to aren't even hound hunters, but rather, professional lobbyists that spend their time working legislation in California and the rest of the country for multiple organizations.

Someone has yet to be able to explain or articulate how "causing a scene" would have won this fight for us. By all means, please explain.

i never got in a fight i at least didnt think a chance of winning.

People with principles don't have the luxury of picking their battles. They fight for what they believe is right and just and worthy...no matter the odds. If you want to be opportunistic and fight only when you think you have a sufficient chance at winning, then go for it. To put it in more real-world terms, what you are suggesting is akin to not turning your dogs out on a bear track because it looks too big to tree or bay.

I have to wonder how the outcome might have changed if there would have been fewer people that quit before the fight began.

i was amazed when i asked diffrent hound people if they even knew who darrel stiengburg was ; 9 out of ten had no clue if you dont know who your fighting you cant win

This is unfortunate. CHC's publications pointed out Steinberg, and his information is widely available on the Internet.
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Re: BILL INTRODUCED TO BAN PURSUIT OF BEAR AND BOBCAT IN CA

Post by ringo8585 »

Rifleman I agree with you for the most part and just wanna help! So if I can be of any assistance please let me know what will help. We need to stay united
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