BigGameHoundsmen.com

I raise and train a bunch of dogs every year. They all get the same training, same amount of time in the woods, even get hunted together. Yet there is always lots of difference between them. If you came and hunted with me you might not see much difference, but I see lots. Even in littermates that are bred close on the same strain.

In my case, genetics is everything. The nuture is the same, it's the nature that makes the difference between keepers and culls. That is set before they are born and there is nothing I can do to change it after the female has been bred.

High Desert started this post off with could someone put breeding in simple terms.

All the talk about EPD'S expected progeny difference in livestock is interesting, I don't know if it really applies to hound breeding unless you want your bitches to to be heavier milkers or your males to have larger, faster growing carcasses with the least amount of feed.

That being said I do think that a person that has a back round in breeding livestock, race horses etc.. is ahead of the game, and in short order if breeding big game hounds could rise to the surface and make consistent big game hounds! Lester Nance ring a bell?

Ike's point is valid when says exposure, drive,and desire plays a large role in making a good hound! His picture's validate that no matter how you feel about it. It's not bragging if you can do it! but I am sure his hounds have a good solid foundation behind them.

Muhammad Ali was possibly the greatest heavy weight fighter in the world, you ever hear of Laila Ali? Genetics, exposure, drive, desire, could it be both?

Broncobilly said "you could get an average pack dog to become a much better than average lead dog by bringing them in the house" if that was the answer I would have all my hounds in bed with me.

Though I think that socialization and interaction is very important in the development of a good pack I believe there is a better way than bringing them into the house.

how many dog boxes do you see before bear season and after?
what do people do with their dogs in the off season?

dads dogboy said according to a post subject: Average bobcat race, from his log book in 2008 their pack was on 186 races, now that is a heck of a lot of exposure, and it give me a little insight how good their breeding program might be.

now I am sure that if Ike took one of cjc hounds and cjc took one of Ike's hounds neither of them would be happy, not saying that they both don't have great dog it that they are are not bred for the same purpose.

hunt what you like, breed what you like, strive to be better!

Lester Sporting a New Coon Skin Coat !!

Good post sourdough, and I believe producing an athlete in a human or a hound takes both the genetic background and the nurture to bring the potential to the surface. I just get tired of hearing comments like these dogs are bred to trail and catch and are the answer to anybodies needs is all...............

Odds are Dad's Dogboy father is not only a good breeder but a damn good hunter and trainer, and his training and handling ability is most likely part of their success program is all that I'm saying? I also find it interesting that a trainer and hunter spends ten or twelve years training and hunting a dog (from the tit) and so many people want to either give credit or condemnation to the guy that let the sire and damn to that dog catch...

There is no off season for Ike, as lion runs year round and bear runs spring, summer and fall. The largest time I take off is during October when the rifle elk and deer hunters are out, and the dogs are getting roaded three to five times a week during this time period. I also get a call from time to time on a problem bear, so the dogs just never hang on the chain for long periods of time.

ike

You guys are really logging the hours out there!
CLC having "caught" 186 bobs,I think I got that right.Either way 186 trees or 186 races thats alot of time on the ground.
John your breeding program being what it is and your success speaking for it's self what does the ruthless darkside look like?
There is little said about what your rate of success in the breeding program is compared to those pups that don't make the grade.
One thing for certain a houndsmen that puts that kinda time into hounds does have a far more critical eye than the average weekend warrior and should then make it even more difficult to have a successful breeding program.
What do you think?
I love this stuff,great thread!

If anyone you know of has mastered the production of good to better dogs , hook me up !! All i need is a guarantee the pup i get will please me , or it will be replaced with a dog of the quality I expect lol ..

Really you can beat your head into the ground trying to become an "Expert" and producing the perfect ,flawless dog , but you probably will never get there .. Its just the way people are , they always want better ..

I myself am not a "breeder" but I have raised a couple litters of pups , and believe I get a higher percentage of "usable" dogs from line breeding , than any other method ..I have very little experiance with inbreeding but the inbred cross's I have made came with mixed results ..


The only people I have seen claim %100 (good to better) success on their cross's ,,, just didnt CULL ..

just my non experienced opinion .

Mr. Muff et al,

Lets start this off with Dad does not sell his Hounds ever! He has several close friends that are hard Hunters in their own right, whom he gives Hounds to.

Self promotion is surly not his style, most of you had never heard of him until I started writing on this thing and many an ass eating I have recieved from him for trying to share some of his thoughts and expeirences.

People like Mr. David, Mr. Dan, Hipshooter, Riverbottom, Pegleg, Mr. Mike and others who have hunting in their blood and bring thoughtful insights into Hounds and Hound Hunting are why I/we try to engage in these discussions.

Anyone who has been keeping up with our posts should recall that we stated in this thread and in the Breeding thread last year started by Mr. Dan Edwards that it has been many years since he has had to remove a Pup from the Gene Pool. Before that any subpar or marginal Hound was removed using criteria very much like the info Riverbottom submitted from England! As stated in recent years all the pups in litters have made Hounds worth feeding... some better than others....some with different style of running than others(swingers vs track runners) but all worth feeding!
That is 40+ years and from 13 to 19 generations of his breeding program.

As to the thought that a second or third litter of pups from a bitch does not produce as good of Hounds as the 1st. Sure not the case here! Have had 3 bitches in the last 14 years who have had multiple litters(2 had 2 litters one had 3). Pup from last as good or better than 1st. Bitches all bred back to same male as the 1st time.

Some of you will be saying that Dad is maybe getting old, and he darn sure is; and soft about culling. Not the case if anything he is harder on his Hounds now than ever!

Bigboarstopper started a thread on "How do you find the time to hunt so much" any questions about us, please read that!

Are Dads Hounds perfect.... as I have said before, not my call. They satisfy Dad and bring 97% of the Cat they jump to a terminal conclusion. Will they catch Cat anywhere, don't know or care, just that they do here with style and voice!

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

sourdough wrote:Broncobilly said "you could get an average pack dog to become a much better than average lead dog by bring them in the house" if that was the answer I wound have all my hounds in bed with me.

NO, I did NOT say that. I said that I have seen it happen more than once. I have seen it happen twice to be exact. You implied when you paraphrased my post(btw, your paraphrase of my post should not have been in quotation marks because it was NOT a quote) that I said it will work every time. I did NOT say that it will work every time because it will NOT work every time. My experience is that you get a significant improvement about 10% of the time and a dramatic improvement about 2% of the time. I brought this up to show the impact environment CAN have on SOME dogs. I did NOT say that it WILL have this impact on ALL dogs.

My dogs are first brought into the house when they are injured badly enough to need the extra care. If they house break easily and are well mannered, then they are brought back in for a couple of hours a day twice a week for about 2 months. If they show significant improvement in their hunting performance during that time, then I continue to bring them into the house periodically, otherwise they stay outside untill they are injured again.

In my opinion, the improvement is from either increased desire to please me instead of pleasing themselves, or from increased confidence that they know what I want. In either case, it is only allowing the dog to reach their full genetic potential(some dogs can't seem to reach it without the increased human contact) but it cannot bring something out in a dog if it is not there to begin with.

This is not something that I would reccommend to a breeder who is trying to breed the perfect dog, but as a hunter who is trying to get the most he can from the dogs he has, it works for me.

Bill

broncobilly,
Thanks for the feedback, and the grammar lesson!

Good post...some real interesting thoughts on here...keep 'er going

Sourdough,

I am not sure what you mean by the emoticon at the end of your last post. If you mean that you feel that I was being argumentative, then I apologize, my intent is not to be starting an argument, but is to leave no doubt where I stand and what I mean on that subject. My earlier post was evidently not clear, or detailed, enough, therefore, I attempted to be as clear as possible in the last post.

Bill

Thanks for the reply Mr.Clay
I have gotta say that I am quite impressed with your 97% success rate,that would be unheard of in these parts on bobcats.
Certainly achieveable numbers here on lions as long as the weather doesn't blow you out or melt you out or what have you.That would also be a very high number on bears here as well.
You need to say nothing more about the quality of hounds you and your dad are producing and hunting,a record like that speaks for it's self.
Once again I sure do appreciate your taking those chewings and contributing here,I enjoy your submissions and am trying to use your ideas,as well others,to "Open my eyes" to the possibilities that more and more seem endless.

Regards,Eric

broncoblly,
No argument here.

Do you think how a hound looks is linked to other traits? Do pups that look more like a certain parent or grandparent share some of the same traits?

I would have to say no, based on seeing and raising a few hundred pups. I don't think you can just pick out a pup that looks like old super dog and have another super dog. On the other hand, I have seen it happen where some dogs that look alike also share some of the same traits. Probably just chance, but maybe...

C. John, I've been trying to raise a pup off my old Traveler dog that has his voice for years, no luck yet. Kept one litter off Hornet, you can pick those Hornet pups out in any race, he put his voice on them.

Riverbottom wrote:Do you think how a hound looks is linked to other traits? Do pups that look more like a certain parent or grandparent share some of the same traits?

I would have to say no, based on seeing and raising a few hundred pups. I don't think you can just pick out a pup that looks like old super dog and have another super dog. On the other hand, I have seen it happen where some dogs that look alike also share some of the same traits. Probably just chance, but maybe...

C. John, I've been trying to raise a pup off my old Traveler dog that has his voice for years, no luck yet. Kept one litter off Hornet, you can pick those Hornet pups out in any race, he put his voice on them.

Steve Herd claims that after breeding within a line of dogs, that the alike colored dogs tend to be the better ones, and the better the crosses get the more alike colored the litters are. Kind of refining the genes and pinpointing all the desired traits til you are producing alike dogs in every way. Makes some sense to me, but definatly not gonna be the deciding factor in a cross.