BigGameHoundsmen.com

I know nothing of genetics at all. I was hoping we could get an in depth discussion going on what it means to bread for traits and other genetic make ups. lets go beyond breeding best to best. Lets try and not argue just let everyone willing tell what they think. And if possible put it in simple terms so I can try and understand. Any thought would be greatly apprieciated.

I agree i would like to know as well

This topic tends to get a bit rough, so hang on!

Read Onstott's book on breeding and Guy Ormistons book on breeding the modern working dog. Both exceptional books based on fact, not opinion.

The New Art of Breeding Better Dogs By Kyle Onstott. Great Book
Great subject and one I would love to hear some of the great breeders on here to talk about.
Alot of talk about breeding the best to the best and you can't go wrong or this blood to this blood and you can't go wrong. What a CROCK. If this was the case the horsemen are doing it all wrong, just take 2 Kentucky Derby winners of the oppisit sex and breed them and you will have a winner.
My Grandfather once told me if you want to see what kind of reproducers you are breeding. Take Father to Daughter and you should come up will a litter of real good dogs or a litter of culls, there is no in betweens. The lesson he was trying to teach me is, Linebreed all the good traits.
Linebreeding and InBreeding is the fastest way to bring to surface the good or bad genes. Outcrosses in the same breed is a gamble and breeding two totally different breeds is usually suicide.
For the Idiot breeder to throw 2 UNPROVEN dog together and tell everyone that this is the Magic ticket and can't go wrong,he is just a salesman and should be steered clear of.
Too much praise is put on a stud and Fact is the female passes on more traits than the male. Yo can have the best dog in the world and it may not be able to reproduce hissself. I have seen this many times. It is very hard to get a stud that is a proven reproducer.
I bought 3 dogs once from a man out of the same Male and two different females and one dog turned out and the other 2 were culls. I would credit the one dogs success to the female not the male.
Strong or great breeding composses of a Great line of PROVEN REPRODUCERS and 2 dogs that have PROVEN their hunting ablitlies as well.
On the flip side there are many dogs that have come from accidential breedings or unproven dogs but I think you will find that is about as far as it goes for that line. If not I think if you could look back, you would find that there was more line breeding than was known, or it was just a fluke.
I would love to hear from David, Dan Edwards,Pops and even Dadsdogboy. And I think some of them will even bring up Hybred Vigor

You can follow the history of this board ( and time )and see the fads come in and out, my advise is.
PROVEN BLOODLINES and PROVEN HUNTING PARENTS.

I've been breeding hounds for a long time. It's an obsession with me. I've spent way more time and money on it than what is good for me. It's not something I'm proud of. Along the way I have read everything I can find on the subject. Some of it helped me and some cost me a lot of money and wasted years.

This article made more sense to me than anything I have read:
http://www.shewmaker.com/digest94.pdf
Read the part about Selective Pressure.

The best advise I can give anyone on the subject of breeding hounds is...
Don't do it! Take up golf or fishing or something!

Mr. pacojack, I'm not picking a fight, just want to make some points I believe. What I'm about to write is only my opinion.

1st- I have not read Kyle's book nor do I plan to, but isn't his theory about show dogs not hounds.

2nd- The father/daughter thing holds little water. The only reason one should do this is to keep his/her blood alive. If you want to find out if a dog is a reproducer, bred he/she to a lot of dogs in the same family and that will answer the question. It is not possible to know if the father and daughter have the same genes to begin with.

3rd- You wrote: Too much praise is put on a stud and Fact is the female passes on more traits than the male.
I have heard this time and time again. This is not true, and if it was we all would be hunting perfect dogs. All you would have to do is find the best female reproducer in each litter, bred them ect. ect. ect. The finish produce would be perfection.

4th-Males are as much as reproducers as females. I have seen it over and over.

My short summary:
When breeding above average, consist dogs it involves two things.
1st- Cull hard and breed the good ones with in a family of dogs. Before breeding a bitch, be honest with yourself and find her weak points. Find a male in the same family of dogs and find his weak points. Try to match each others weakest points with over powering traits from its mate. That is how above average, consistent pups are made. Line breeding is the best way to make consistent dogs. Unless you have 50 or so dogs, inbreeding is the best way to get out of dogs

To many breeding programs are the quick and easy ones. Now, it is possible to make above average dogs, but the consistency is not going to be there.

2nd- 50% of breeding is the dogs and 50% is just luck!

JMO

personally the breeding thing is way too much work for me and I see it being too much work for most others in these parts.
Best to the best is a term used way too much everywhere that I talk to dog guys,it really is not true.Best to the best is most likely a crap shoot.
We've been talking about this a bit recently in my circles and it seems that all agree the toughest thing to find is a good female.Infact we all put our heads together on finding a female outside our "Line" that we felt was a good prospect and they are just not out there,at leats locally.
Using proven hunting stock that has been hunted on the game you are going to be after is a good idea as is using dogs that are accustomed to your hunting conditions ie.snow versus dry ground.
Do your homework and us breeding stock that has come from "families or lines"of dogs that are better than average and you will greatly improve your chances of success.
In the end roll the dice and hope for the best!

Riverbottom, thanks for the read it was useful and interesting. I appriciate everyones input and I hope it continues. Paco and catch you both make interesting points thanks for your input.

Folks!

Would be more than willing to have Dad give some of his thoughts on breeding, however there seem to be plenty of experts already on here! Also we pretty much covered this subject on a Bobcat Thread last spring.

Anyone sincerly interested in Hound breeding should go to http://www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com click on the Hound Breeding articles and read the ones by "White". Hop White was a Phd from TX A&M as well as one hell of a Fox Hunter and Hound breeder. There are several other very good papers on this sight as well!

One contains the best quote that any True Houndsmen should remember " I would rather have my good bitch get Snake bit rather than breed to a Hound with more than 20 individuals in a 3 generation pedigree"! Think about this and graph out what a breeding with two unrelated Hounds will look like, darn what a Genetic Goolash!

Hound Breeding is a long term undertaking, most people are Instant Gratification types with little patience for the Decades not Years that it takes to be able to Genetically Plan your matings!

C. John Clay
Dads dogboy

The instant gratification can be solved by starting with great line bred dogs. The trick is not screwing it up once you get them.

Ahhhh!

Someone who is thinking as well as reading. Check out the papers on the site I talk about and read Ormistons book and you will be "Shore Nuff" jump started on Hound Breeding!


CJC

Dads dogboy wrote:One contains the best quote that any True Houndsmen should remember " I would rather have my good bitch get Snake bit rather than breed to a Hound with more than 20 individuals in a 3 generation pedigree"! Think about this and graph out what a breeding with two unrelated Hounds will look like, darn what a Genetic Goolash!

Hound Breeding is a long term undertaking, most people are Instant Gratification types with little patience for the Decades not Years that it takes to be able to Genetically Plan your matings!

C. John Clay
Dads dogboy

That is some good stuff there.

Pacojack,

Dad says that in his 40+ years of Hound Breeding, you are right on the Bullseye about the Bitch being the more important of the two parents. In his expierence if a Bitch has any faults she will pass them on to her offspring where as the Stud may have a weakness that the Bitch will cover!

Dad always weights a mating heavily towards the Bitch side with selected desired traits from a Male. Some Males came be very Prepotent to certain traits, but they will not mask or cover a faulty trait in a Bitch consistantly!

CJC

Dads dogboy wrote:Pacojack,

Dad says that in his 40+ years of Hound Breeding, you are right on the Bullseye about the Bitch being the more important of the two parents. In his expierence if a Bitch has any faults she will pass them on to her offspring where as the Stud may have a weakness that the Bitch will cover!

Dad always weights a mating heavily towards the Bitch side with selected desired traits from a Male. Some Males came be very Prepotent to certain traits, but they will not mask or cover a faulty trait in a Bitch consistantly!

CJC

i gotta respectfully disagree on this one. If the bitch is covering a fault inthe stud, it is because the strong point of the bitch is covering the weak point of the stud and vice versa, at least thats how matings should be selected and I'm sure in 40 years of breeding your dad is well aware and practices this. Like catch said earlier, if it was heavily on the bitch then it would not take long to create perfection. That is mathematically inevitable, if you can single out the dominant gene passing dog.

Dads dogboy wrote:Pacojack,

Dad says that in his 40+ years of Hound Breeding, you are right on the Bullseye about the Bitch being the more important of the two parents. In his expierence if a Bitch has any faults she will pass them on to her offspring where as the Stud may have a weakness that the Bitch will cover!

Dad always weights a mating heavily towards the Bitch side with selected desired traits from a Male. Some Males came be very Prepotent to certain traits, but they will not mask or cover a faulty trait in a Bitch consistantly!

CJC

Think about this. From what you are saying, you and your dad only have two types of dogs. Perfect or culls!