BigGameHoundsmen.com

Does this end up getting dogs killed later on when the cat is caught again???

I keep getting chit from people about this. It is going to have to be a big freaking tom for me to kill another cat, or me or my dogs will have to be in harms way. I cant see any reason to kill them just because you got it caught. I have caught several of them 2-3 times over the course of the years and have never had but one dog hurt and that is because they caught it on the ground.

What are your thoughts???

I'll put down my thoughts at a later time as I dont want to lead anybody in a different direction.

Personally I have no problem lettin em go! They do get spoiled and somtime are harder to catch but if we killed every lion caught we would have nothing to run. JMO
It would have to be a real hog for me to ever pull the trigger on another lion.
But at the same time I understand about getting them trained! LOL

Back years ago I was hunting the same ranch for years and had treed the same lions over and over and never had any problem. Not saying it will never happen but it would be a sad hunting world if a person shot everything you treed. Let them go and run another day if it would ever happen that I lost a dog or 2 because of this its just part of hunting and the dogs would die doing what they are bred for. jmo later, Andy

the people givin you chit are full of exactly that! Some say they get spoiled, not sure i subscribe to that either. caught the same cat all year long several times, seemed like it worked opposite, cat climbed easier and easier

This is a very good question and I can't wait to hear what others think.

I for one have had a hound killed by a lion and I can't say for sure that others treeing it and letting it go was the cause of this happening, I don't believe it was, it was a nasty old tom with a attitude, who had probably killed a few coyote off his kills and had no problem with my dog as she was caught by herself and was alone. That in it self = a bad deal!

I guess I will use my fishing analogy. When I was a kid my folk and I spent a great deal of time in the summer fishing we kept our limits, cleaned them and put them in the freezer, we had them for dinner now an again and I can honestly say I liked catching them better than eating them, at the start of the summer it was time to make room in the freezer and out went last years fish. I don't fault my folk as they had that depression mentality as did everyone else in that time.

As for leaving a lion, or any tree game in a tree to run another day, well that for the person holding that tag. I can say that their are too many folk that think they need to knock everything out to their hounds to make them better dog, now I've never shot a deer in front of my hounds but until I put a stop to it they get pretty damn good at running them.

Just my thoughts,

sourdough

sourdough wrote:I don't fault my folk as they had that depression mentality as did everyone else in that time.

Now that one will date you, as my parents had depression era parents themselves.

Welcome...

I have run into 2 lions that got spoiled by this. One crippled my best dog. But as Twist said "doing what they were bred to do". The other still rears kittens and trains my pups.

Now Mr. Mike can tell you about a Tom that Killed some dogs.

larry wrote:the people givin you chit are full of exactly that! Some say they get spoiled, not sure i subscribe to that either. caught the same cat all year long several times, seemed like it worked opposite, cat climbed easier and easier

As much as I hate to I have to agree. I feel that the way you spoil a cat is by jumping it out and rerunning it over and over.

If I shot down every lion I treed. I would only be able to tree one lion per year . and that would make for a short boring season , for me and the hounds . the season is short enough as it is!

I think a lion that jumps the tree cause it wants to is a whole lot different than a cat that gets jumped out.
If you are looking for trouble you'll find it from the later especially if you let the dogs loose on the jump instead of holding them back.
A bad cat is a bad cat,if it wants to stop and fight bad things are gonna happen no matter what you do.
Lions need to be in top physical condition to kill their prey regularly and really can not risk injury thats why they climb in the first place.Instinct drives this tendancy but then anything can happen out there at anytime.
Good luck!

Eric Muff wrote:I think a lion that jumps the tree cause it wants to is a whole lot different than a cat that gets jumped out.
If you are looking for trouble you'll find it from the later especially if you let the dogs loose on the jump instead of holding them back.
A bad cat is a bad cat,if it wants to stop and fight bad things are gonna happen no matter what you do.
Lions need to be in top physical condition to kill their prey regularly and really can not risk injury thats why they climb in the first place.Instinct drives this tendancy but then anything can happen out there at anytime.
Good luck!

Mr Eric Muff,

Good point, I think when a lion leaves a tree on it own will, it's because it didn't fill safe and they took refuge there because the dogs forced them to, but when they find the tree or place they like they stay put and are unconcerned.

Jumping lions out, is great training for young dogs but it has it limits and a lot of it is based on the stamina of the lion, even if you have the dog tied back, which you should. If the lion is aired out, the dogs will overtake him and force him to stand his ground. I will jump them out twice and call it good, anymore than that your asking for trouble.

As far as the lion climbing to avoid injury. Ok, I will go with that, and take it a little further, from the time they are kitten they instinctively know how to avoid life's hazards such as toms and other predators, wolves, coyotes, bears, that if given the chance can and will kill them, climbing trees, hiding in rock piles, and ledges is something they are accustom to doing. To live long enough for one of us to put them in a tree or to make it to breeding age is really something.

sourdough

When they're gone they're gone........then what are ya going to tree?

Paco,

Right on jumping out and re-running spoils them . Although in this country very few are jumped out anymore because most hunters I see start shooting as soon as they get it in view.

Again and I know I have beat this drum before but I want to say it again there are some inherent problems that arise from jumping out and re-running lions. Please don't think I am referring to a lion that just naturally jumps again on it's own. I am talking about lions that are prodded , snowballed or pushed and shook out to run again. First you take the risk of them becoming winded quickly and fast dogs catching them and you will have very bills and possible some dead dogs.Most likely you will then have to kill the lion or the dogs will so severely injure it the lion will die. Second many lions are found a day or two after a series of jump outs dead from stress and exaustion. Lions do not handle this type of stress well and for some reason a type of pneumonia sets into their lungs and many just walk off and hole up and die. I know several of these have been taken to the University Vet. Center for autopsy and stress related lung problems.

Another problem can arise from FORCED jump outs and that is a ticket and a healthy fine from the Game and Fish Dept. for it is deemed wildlife harassment.Always remember the forest has eyes even more so these days with all the technolgy and scanners and communication devices.


As to Tim's commnet I had one particular spoiled tom that had most likely become that way from many chases in a horrible chain mini grand canyons that allowed him to fight, jump out or climb out go again and he got good at it. Stupid me I couldn't turn his track down and he knocked my Big Nosed Kate dog out before I could get there and busted her all up inside, and left. She died as a result of this internal injuries. Next time I had revenge in mind and I trailed him all day and had him caught just at dark and he slipped out and my old Josie dog was the only one I couldn't grab. She was a never quit old red-tick but like Kate she was 11 years old. Well it was suicide to try to go into theose canyons in the dark. Next morning I found her many miles away still trailing him on three legs and down to a snail's pace.She had been knocked out and her front shoulder messed up bad. Well she recovered some but never regained use of that shoulder again and her hunting days were over.

The worst part last year found me back on his trail with blood in my eye. I had him up out of the bad canyons and on the move in lower ridges. Trouble was I was on an approximatly 36 hour old snow track. We were moving but I knew we had a long hard road ahead. Little Blue Josie's son was leading the chase. Hours rolled on and where he was headed I didn't think I could cut around and and shorten it up. Well I had a man along and he was keeping in touch via radio with me but I guess he had a cell phone call from some other hunters he knew. He told them what we were up to and they scanned my tracking collers and cut ahead and hit the lion just as he crossed out ahead of them and caught him on a five minute race and killed him. I am glad he is gone but I sure would have enjoyed seeing Little Blue get to sink a tooth into his mangy hide.

Mike L,

I will agree that Forced jump outs can find a guy facing some wildlife harassment issues, that being said I guess I should clear up my statement above, if you have to work at getting the lion to leave the safety of the tree you better just walk away.

Spoiled lions have their problems there is no question about it. I for one would much rather run a spoiled one, as dead lions don't run, although management needs to be done for the health of lions and prey species look at Washington, Oregon, and California.

I will take some issue with your statement about over stressing a lion due to jump outs, now there maybe some truth to that, but I would be careful not to make a blanket statement as you well know, having worked with livestock all your life, animals die some with health problem and others for no apparent reason. Vets though educated sometimes label things as they have no other explanation for it. A veterinary practice is just that.

sourdough

I agree and it wasn't a blanket statement.

Yes I have worked with livestock all my life and I am well aware that the nervous system of a bovine or even a sheep ( however I have no experience with them nor Llamas). LOL! is a whole lot different than that of a wild deer or elk. the State WL Biologist told me that during their capture and collar program for mule deer a good number of these trapped or snared deer die from stress.You never hear much about that.

A bear, coon, or even bobber seem like they can take a lot more stress than a lion. Not sure why.

Mike L,

Elk, deer, antelope, and bighorn sheep captures result in a lot of stress losses there is no doubt about it, I would of like to seen a unedited copy of wild kingdom I'll bet ole Stan and marlin Perkins could tell a few stories.

A ranch manager friend of mine grew up in New Mexico, he told me when the NM game department did antelope captures, they would call the ranches close to where they were going to do the capturing, to come take the stress dead antelope.There is no doubt that stress losses happen.

well I hope you have been able to run them hounds of yours down a few tracks lately and enjoy some time in some old lion haunt it's truly one of the greatest sports ever, some folks are in it for the catch and others in it for the pure love of hound and El Gato.