BigGameHoundsmen.com

Well, here is another dog sale gone bad.

I got a call on a pup that i was selling. Ryan told me he was interested in buying Dixie. He was wanting a good bobcat dog. I told him she wasn't a bobcat dog, that she was just a good young started dog....and that she had the normal guarantee to eat and poop. I sent him some video over the phone and he saw some pics of her on this site. He said that he wanted something with potential that he wasn't gonna have to cull. I told him she was for sure not a cull...........LOL "famous last words"

I had Dixie priced for $1,500.00, she was 8 months old, had been firing since she was 2 1/2 months old along with her 3 other littermates that i started. This pup had been trailing and treein trainers at 3 months old and saw her first lion at 5 months old. She had made every race but one long muddy south slope race that only two dogs pushed through. She would trail her own track and pushed me to sale an older dog that was not working as hard as she was.

The other littermates are also all making dogs. Matts ringo pup, was the latest starting and caught his own lion the other day. Dixie's littermates aren't for sale and she would not have been at this young of age if i wouldn't have lost my dog place.

Anyway, Ryan is patient with me and we get vet checks and flights arranged. He is gonna be into this dog over $2,000.00 by the time she hits his house. I asked him if he was sure he wanted her...and couldn't he possibly find a dog out there for that much money that was already what he was looking for? He said no that he was interested in her.


Ryan gets her and i get a call. He likes the look of her and how she handles. A couple days later he takes her hunting and she isn't cold trailing. I wasn't really worried at this point, figured once she saw a bobcat and got adjusted she would be ok. Well, this goes on for a while.....then i hear through the grape vine Ryans older dog got one jumped and Dixie stood on her head. Now i thinkin what the hell? It gets worse, Ryans frustrated, and i cant blame him. He runs her on a trainer and she doesn't do anything. Once again, i hear through the grape vine. Ryan txt'x me later that night and tells me the story. I'm thinkin, what happened to my dog. Ryan is probably thinking this a__hole sole me a cull for alot of money.

I think that things are good between me and Ryan....we are communicating and he is wanting to keep trying her. I'm just wondering if she will come back around or what the hell is going on.

So here it is....i sold a pup and gave my honest opinion of the dog. Ryan, bought a high dollar pup that isn't doing a dang thing for him. Is anyone in the wrong or is it just one of those things that may happen. The reason im even bringing this up is to show that even if both parties are honest in their dealings things can go wrong.

Appreciate any opinions on this topic, not looking for blaming or pissin matches.

Thanks for the long read, jason

Maybe I missed it in your post but how long has he had this dog from you???? Some dogs need an adjustment period to new surroundings before they start acting themselves and some take longer than others. That may not be what he wants to hear but maybe that's it....
I believe that you were honest with him... you sent him video, and told him basically there were no guarantees and that she wasn't a bobcat dog...
Don't really think anyone is in the wrong but I would be frustrated if I were him and spent a lot of money and she wasn't working...
I see both sides...
probably doesn't make you feel any better!

muckdog, not exactly sure how long he has had her. Thinking over a month....i can't keep track of time.

I know on the adjustment period, but honestly with this pup she was all fireball at a young age, just really suprises me. I hope that this is the case and that she comes around and makes him a dog that he never wants to sale.

Ryan lives pretty far away, and in i previous post about selling dogs this was brought up when people were discussing hunting with the dog first. Sometimes it is too big of a hassle. I really wish that he would have had the opportunity to see her hunting here. Then he would atleast know what she was before she got on the airplane.

Thanks for the comments, jason

Here's my opinion, even if it's not worth 2 squirts of duck crap. Dixie is a pup... She's a started dog... She's seen some game... and again.. she's a pup. If he has other dogs, not only does she have to get used to her surroundings, but she really has to figure out her spot in his pack. As with any dog, I don't think it matters how old they are or how much game they've seen, or how the previous owner described them, they are pack animals, and it takes time.

Poser, i've heard and read nothing but great things about you and your dogs, so if I were you, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. If Ryan can keep putting her in the best possible situation to continue learning and seeing game, she'll snap back into her old self... Dixie comes from proven bloodlines, so it's up to Ryan to finish her out...

Tyler

If I couldn't stand behind it I wouldn't sell it end of story!

Tyler, Its just hard to hear about a young dog that you have seen progress and then all the sudden she isnt doing things she did at 10 weeks old. I feel bad but hope that she turns around sooner then later. Appreciate the comments.

Curtis, not exactly sure what your mean. Are you saying i should have know that she was gonna fall on her face or that i should buy her back and pay to have her shipped and a health certificate and ....... Would you please explain a little more. Thanks for your opinion and time.

Take care, jason

Ok, my two cents))). Guys are right, they must adjust to you, the area, and pack your running. I'm not sure where Ryan is from, but if I had a video of a dogs doing its job in my turf, he is on his own. I bought a top cat dog from maine, flew him in, two days later, jumped a cat, it crossed the road, threw my new dog on him, and he walked back to me, he could see the dam thing. Same feeling. I let him adjust, two weeks later, put him on a jumped cat, and a good hound ever since. Flights shake them for a while also. Second, I bought a dog from van when he was here, training. He cold trailed rigged etc. Van left, and he wasnt a real wi bear dog for a year and a half, he had to learn to run and trail water, etc. Not mountains. After the first year, he was a fine dog. Example three, I sold my best dog to a guy fighting cancer 6 years ago, he beat the cancer, and called me last fall, wanting more, He bought my pack of 7. two weeks later, he had their late season, and the females adjusted well to him. The three males, he didnt like and for sale. I spoke with him the other day, and he said the males he is really liking now, they are thinking the same way))). This guy knows me, believes me 100 percent, and what they were they were. He didnt stagger, what I said the males was, he knew it was his job, to figure out why, and deal with it. He is also a good hound man. I raised all of them since pups,and he had to get their respect, in my opinion. Oh, deal four, I had a dog, get her guts tore open, vet put her back together, and I sold her a year later, for a honest price, four years later, the guy calls and said, she had gut problems and died. Asked what I could do. So now, we are suppose to guarantee them for life?. I was honest when he bought her. If you have communication with Ryan, showed him video on what the dog done, I'm sure you can work out the bugs, at best, take the dog back at his expense to fly it to you. But there must also be complete honesty on both sides. LOL

Poser,

Here is my take on it...... Speaking from experience here. I sold my 3 year old female Lola that was one of my rock solid dogs. I bred and raised and trained her and she was one of my lead dogs after her mother Sandy died. She had been on more lion, bobcat and coon than I could count. I sold her for a very good price for the dog she was. A couple of guys went in partner on her. I get an email that she is not hunting as she was for me. I assured the guy she would as she loved to hunt and I have had friends hunt her and have hunted her with other hounds outside of my own pack so I cannot see her not hunting. The guy that went in partnership with this other guy decided to take her and try her out and she hunted well for him. Sometimes dogs don't mesh with handlers and vice versa. Lola now hunts for the guy she didn't at first and she is one of his lead dogs... She came around eventually. This is not the first time this has happened and it wont be the last. I sent quite a few dogs I bought packing cause I didn't get along with them, but they worked for the people that got them from me. They are not machines, they all have their own personalities and hunting styles. If the guy has given her a fair shot and she is not working out for him and she showed potential for you, maybe they are just not a good mix and she needs to go to someone else.

cat and bear wrote:Oh, deal four, I had a dog, get her guts tore open, vet put her back together, and I sold her a year later, for a honest price, four years later, the guy calls and said, she had gut problems and died. Asked what I could do. So now, we are suppose to guarantee them for life?. I was honest when he bought her. If you have communication with Ryan, showed him video on what the dog done, I'm sure you can work out the bugs, at best, take the dog back at his expense to fly it to you. But there must also be complete honesty on both sides. LOL

Good read guys, and thanks for sharing. Now I realize why I was never very interested in raising and training hounds to sell.........

ike

Poser,
Before I was started in hounds I was messing with border collies. there is a lady that lives here that is a good hand and knows her working dogs. She was needing a good stud/trial dog so she went to scotland to buy one. She stayed for a week working and trying him out. Everything was good she was taking lessons from the guy that trained the dog and was getting to know him. She baught the dog and came home. When she got home it took two years to get the dog going again. He is a damn nice dog but still not the same dog she baught.
I don't know if this helps you but it takes time for a dog to gain trust enough in the new owner and its self.

Hey Poser

I can really relate with the guy you sold this dog to. Three years ago I bought a 18month old magestic walker dry ground lion dog. I watched video of him and I really trusted the houndsman I was buying him from. When I got him home he wouldn't even eat for a week. He was real shy and skittish. That first lion season I finally got him to where he would hunt with me as long as no one else was there and no other dogs were there it was frustrating as hell but he was so damn good it was worth it. Three years later he will now hunt with most dogs and most people as long as I am there. No one else can catch him and he will only come to me which can be good and bad at times but I'm glad I stuck with him he was worth it. I think dogs at that age can just really struggle adjusting to a new family and new scenery.

Jason

A Dog deal is bad when the facts are not true or hidden to make the dog look better then it really is. You have no control over the enviroment the dog is in now and how it is being handled. I'm not saying anything bad about the folks who have the pup but apparently it is different then the pups use to. I have been in dogs, at one level or another for 30 plus years and sooner or later some will not perform due to a host of reasons, IE: enviroment, handling, pack order ect... Some things just dont work out and it's nobody's fault, just is. Sounds like both are reasonable guys and will figure something out that works for both parties. But I wouldnt call it a bad dog deal, just a deal. If you get her back and still dont have a place for her I will make room at my house as I know the blood.

Bruce

Poser, sorry to hear about the deal...Who knows, at this point it may not be a "deal gone bad"....yet. Perhaps the pups will come around. One thing I do know is it seems horses and dogs both do the same damn thing to us when we sell them....they either make us a hero or a goat...and I can't seem to predict which it'll be! Hopefully he gets her figured out, I too have seem hounds that fire hard, especially at a young age kinda go through a "phase" where they back off a bit then line back out for good...

Best of luck to both of you guys involved and it sure sounds like Poser is trying his damndest to make it good for the buyer. Good luck.

My two dull pennies on the sudject.....

The good news from my perspective is that you guys are still communicating in a solution based manner. That in it’s self speaks volumes for both of you’re character.

As you well know hounds are pack animals before they are predators. They first need to establish their pecking order. Depending on the situations the pack is being exposed to this could take some time. Boarding methods and feeding can influence this as well. I would put the pack in controlled situation that help establish pecking order. I like to find a toy or chew toy that the dogs all seem to like. Something new that they don’t get on regular bases (I don’t want them to think it is something that already “belongs” to them).
I turn them loose in the backyard and toss the toy out for them (keep in mind I only hunt 4 dogs). I let the dogs workout who gets the toy first, making sure things don’t get out of hand, if they do I take the toy and hold it in their view for a few minute till things calm down. I re-introduce the toy until they are able to workout who gets it. Once one dog gets it for a few minute and it is clear that the others are not pursuing it I take it away and hold it above the other dogs in view. I want to establish that I am the alpha in the pack. This is just a method I use to help introduce a young dog and keep my pack tight. It is by no means an end all be all, just an exercise that I have used.

I know this seems like a lot of trouble but bobcat dogs are a bread of their own. They seem to need more in the way of social acclimation. Once it is well established the hunt will likely be instinctual.

That aside you guys should establish a timeline. Just for the sake of the situation say 3 months. If the buyer is not happy give him his money back.

I had a similar thing happen recently, I was the buyer. I was careful how I presented to the seller and the seller has a healthy moral compass. When I called him he had some ideas that where helpful. He also called some of the other interested caller to inquire if they were still interested. He was willing to re-sell the dog and give me my money back. The long and short of it was I was being lazy and not acclimating the dog well. I still have her and am glad I do. So hang in there……

Don

If you sell an 8 month old started prospect for $500 I would say the guy is on his own.There is always an element of risk when buying a young "prospect".But if you got the confidence to charge $1500 for an 8 month old then you probably got to back it up.