BigGameHoundsmen.com

OK first I don't know if anyone else noticed the bed bug add at the top of the page. where there's the bugs crawling all over the bed? now I maintain that with all the singles websites etc. it's a case of of subliminal messaging gone wrong. I swear my first thought was christ buddy letting them advertise crab cream is low. we all know houndsmen are dirty filthy beast but to assume we all have CRABS!!
Surely even hounddoggers know you only need a match, turpentine, and a sharp knife to get rid of crabs...

My real reason on posting is selling trained liondogs. in Snow areas this doesn't make a huge impact as walking tracks out achieves the same purpose as many miles and skills in the dirt either directly or in the form of a trained hound. my opinion is that by selling trained hounds you increase the odds of producing hunters that don't follow your chosen hunting ethics or respect for game. It's getting more and more difficult to find traditions among outdoorsmen. I'm sure most of these are founded in realistic reasoning dressed up to make a point. some may not be.
I met a man on an assignment once that turned out to be a fellow hunter and he had spent a great deal of time hunting Africa even had the good fortune to hunt Mongolia, a rare accomplishment in its self. He was a hell of a tracker a gift I was very appreciative of and learned from. We talked over the many merits of different game animals we had hunted. When it came to mtn. lion he didn't show the same intensity or volunteer much info on his hunt. Being as I find lions very fascinating I overlooked this at the time. We made plans to share a elk hunt in the fall and kept in touch until then, often talking for hours most conversations turned to hunting sooner or later. I drove to his home several days before elk season so we could do some catching up and scouting. his trophy room was right of the entryway. the first room we visited and spent a good deal of time in there listening to the hunts and circumstances that lead to each mount. I noticed his mtn lion wasn't displayed in there, thinking that it was due to the lack of room I asked where it was and he took me into the family room where it was setting on the coffee table. it was a female that had weighed about 65 -70lbs. I asked about the hunt and he told me a very unremarkable story of being put in touch with a outfitter that told him he would have to be able to be on call during the season. if he was unable to appear within 24 hours his name would be rotated to the bottom of the list again. He flew in and the next morning found them riding roads looking for tracks.
Here he stopped and said, I figured out later I could have stayed home and purchased trained hounds and enjoyed hunting for a lion in my own way for the same price if not less then this cost me. Paying the average price of a western lion hunt he was correct, then the added flight and accommodations only added to the argument.
He has since been on two ten day lion hunts where he has refused to harvest a animal. I know that in this area the hounds are the only thing that make harvesting lions a reasonable possibility. So if we train and sell hounds for less then most guides charge for the service. Is it the new guys fault that he takes all of his friends and relatives that have a tag out with the hope of filling them?

Pegleg: A MATCH ,TURPENTINE AND A SHARP KNIFE OUCH MUST BE A WESTERN THING Most of the east coast hounders just go and see ole DOC SAWBONES and get a simple shot

Come on. Its the arizona way, spend 15k on some hounds and poof, instant dryground lion guide.

I think the problem is hitting way more states then az. we at least have the blessing of not having a road every couple miles. that in itself helps keep many lions out there. I know many guys need the extra cash or think they do, that selling hounds brings in. I believe selling finished hounds is all right but maybe they should consider raising the price just enough to discourage a few of these folks that like to guide under the table.

Raising the prices sure sounds good to me. It amazes me how much a winning competition coon dog goes for and then people complain and raise hell when someone puts a lion dog up on here for 4 or five grand. Its silly. I would bet large amounts of money that I have more time and gas money tied up in one of my older dogs than alot of these competition coon hunters have in theres. Mostly for the reason that most of them dont have to travel far to train.
I have a dog I am in the process of selling to a guy right now for $5500. I wouldnt feel guilty if I could get $15000 for her. She is a great lion and bear dog. Rigs off the truck and dont need help with anything. This dog could easily pay for itself at that price in a reasonable amount of time and get a pack of dogs going for someone. But could you imagine the crap that would get said on here if that is what I asked for her!

Yeah raise the prices!!!!!!!!!!!! That way hound hunting can go the way of other forms of hunting. FOR THE RICH ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's already expensive enough with the price of dog food and fuel. I'll give a kid a good dog if he's hunting it before I'd sell it to a rich man who is just to lazy to train them. This sport is expensive enough with out charging an arm and a leg for dogs. The worst is the 1000 dollar puppys. They haven't done a thing and through marketing some newby thinks he HAS to have one out of that blood line. It's going to be a sad day when only the millionaires can afford to hunt. But it's coming. In utah it can take 12 or more years to draw a good elk tag. Or a rich man can buy a governors tag or a land owner tag. Strange how the landowners don't own the elk but they get tags. If you have the money you can hunt a good hunt every year. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Ranger: I sure hope that $5500 Hound is NOT a PLOTT

so........if im reading this right , you are saying to keep the new guys out the prices should be raised? so guys that dont have hounds should just pony up the cash year after year for an outfitter if they want to hunt lions?. these prices for dogs are allredy way out of hand imo. i see nothing wrong with a guy that chooses to purchase a few good lion dogs and heads out on his own to try and catch a lion. if he wants to bring his brother, buddy or whoever along ......so be it. sound sto me like you think it should be a good ol boys club and any1 who might want to get started by buying a few good hound should just kick rocks. doesnt sit well

pegleg wrote: I know many guys need the extra cash or think they do, that selling hounds brings in. I believe selling finished hounds is all right but maybe they should consider raising the price just enough to discourage a few of these folks that like to guide under the table.

I believe that Pegleg is singling illegal outfitters, not all newbies.

But consider this. Around here, I have been told the going rate for an under the table lion hunt is $2000 per cat. I believe most of the females getting wacked are by this crowd. So even if the price was $10,000 per dog they would only have to kill 5 to pay for the dog. I think that would cause even more females to get killed. IMO education, fines and jail time is the best way to fix the problem long term. But JMO.

bob baldwin jr wrote:Ranger: I sure hope that $5500 Hound is NOT a PLOTT

No it aint a plott!lol.

a good ol' boys club? no I doubt that very much. if you think the good ol boys are going to waste their time on buying hounds at any price we don't classify them the same way. There is a great deal of truth in the cost of dog food gas etc. adding up. so after all the cost are tallied is that hound only worth 5-7 grand? you sure wouldn't be making a living or even much of a contribution to your bank account that way. the only guys selling trained hounds as a business are those who guide raise pups and run a good deal more hounds in a single pack then everyone else.
my question is this pups can and will be sold economically and if a guy really wants to hunt he will put the time into their training. this will add a good deal of respect for the sport as a whole compared to those ready made lion hounds landing in a guys box for a few grand.
land owner tags have nothing to do with the elite for the most part yes they are often offered for sale but who is feeding those game animals when they aren't on public land? and feeding just a few head of elk or deer at the wrong time of the year for a farmer or rancher can be far more then the cost of a tag. so by making the trade the state gets out of using tax payers money to reimburse damages to the landowner and he gets a chance to get some of his loss back or choose to take a chance and fill his freezer.
my original question had more to do with opinions on how the sale of trained hounds affects the type and numbers of the lion harvest in your opinion. not the economic theory behind what we think we should have to pay for a hound or pup. there will always be hard times and someone willing to let a few dogs go cheap. or a unplanned litter or those guys turning out three or four litters a year for the extra cash.

Pegleg, I have seen guys that put the money up for several trained lion dogs, and STILL couldn't catch a lion! There is more to having trained dogs than just feeding them. I have NEVER thought that I could consistantly catch lions without some dang good dogs, but on the other hand, to put lions up consistantly in the country you and I hunt, those same dogs need a little guidance also.

Benny, I once knew a guy who, by his own admission, could buy an outstanding dog and have it ruined with in 6 months. He was no threat to the game in the local area.


Pegleg, spare me the economics of raising a hound. I've had hounds for a long time. I am fully aware of what it costs to raise and train a hound. I am also aware of the fact that with out me inheriting an "experienced" hound when I was 16, I probably wouldn't have them today. It's pretty rare to see someone start with just puppies and turn them into GOOD dogs with out the help of an experienced hound. You can run all of the drags you want and mess with all of the caged coons you want and still not teach them to hunt. As far as the land owners go with the deer and elk. We aren't talking about them "filling their freezer". They are making 10's of thousands of dollars off of elk tags. I know some personally and I'm also very good friends with the local land owner specialist for DWR. If you really want to submit the argument about the landowners feeding the game animals. I'll submit right back to you that everywhere you go in my area is covered with cows all summer. Grazing on public land. Eating what would normally be available for the deer and elk. I have no problems with using public resources but if you graze your cows all summer on public land maybe you shouldn't be whining about some deer and elk coming in and eating in your fields. This entire post is about greed. Some have it, some don't.

Benny G wrote:Pegleg, I have seen guys that put the money up for several trained lion dogs, and STILL couldn't catch a lion! There is more to having trained dogs than just feeding them. I have NEVER thought that I could consistantly catch lions without some dang good dogs, but on the other hand, to put lions up consistantly in the country you and I hunt, those same dogs need a little guidance also.

Amen, the gentleman that sold me my first cat dog said he was the best dog in his pack!

Bearkiller wrote: If you really want to submit the argument about the landowners feeding the game animals. I'll submit right back to you that everywhere you go in my area is covered with cows all summer. Grazing on public land. Eating what would normally be available for the deer and elk. I have no problems with using public resources but if you graze your cows all summer on public land maybe you shouldn't be whining about some deer and elk coming in and eating in your fields. This entire post is about greed. Some have it, some don't.

That is one hell of a good point right there! Around here, I was told, that the grazing fee on national Forest is 10-12 dollars a month per cow/calf pair.

Bearkiller wrote:It's pretty rare to see someone start with just puppies and turn them into GOOD dogs with out the help of an experienced hound.

True story. More people should try it. It's not that hard. I do it regularly with my pups for a couple of reasons. One, is that it allows me to see what prey drive and natural tracking abilities that pup posseses without any distractions from other dogs. Two, it sets it straight in that pups mind that we are a team and he hunts for me and what I say to trail, not himself and what he wants to trail. But you definitley want to be working with a well bred pup, otherwise it is an excersize in futility.