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Well, I took my pup into the vet to get a "cherry eye" prognosis and ended up finding out he has an Extreme Heart murmur, telling me that she didn't think he'd be around much long. He's 3.5 months old, seems to be fine. I have notice his heart rate seems elevated at time but figured it was because he is young. I do plan on getting a 2nd opinion but was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or suggestions? She said that with minor murmurs in puppies she wouldn't really worry about it but his is severe. She recommended an ultrasound but said it would just give more detailed info and in my pups case, any surgery probably wouldn't do any good. She said that this condition should have been noticed right after he was born.
I don't have the money to shell out thousands of dollars for surgery and shelling out 300 for the ultrasound doesn't seem like it would do any good except make someone else more financially comfortable. I can handle the 2nd opinion exam though.
I'm hoping she was over zealous with her finding, but not sure.

I will ask and accept any prayer from any of you.

Thanks

I get tired of hearing that pups have a heart murmur, it seems that vets say that on every pup that they see. Just let it be a pup and give it some time, I would bet money that it grows out of it. Vets are the biggest damn crooks out there.

I would just let him grow and treat him like a pup without a heart murmur.. He will either grow out of it or not..

walker83 wrote:I get tired of hearing that pups have a heart murmur, it seems that vets say that on every pup that they see. Just let it be a pup and give it some time, I would bet money that it grows out of it. Vets are the biggest damn crooks out there.

I hear ya on the crook thing. I have a hard time with having faith in vet or doctors in general. they seem to want to "reccommend" or prescribe something every chance they get. She "reccommended" an Ultrasound ($300) but said that whatever specifics were found, surgery wouldn't do any good because how severe the murmur is. So I asked, "so why would I get the ultrasound and throw away $300?" Apparently she thought I was stupid and didn't mind contributing to her financial well being.

But thanks for your encouragement. I just plan on waking up the same way every day as usual, thanking God for what I have.

i took one to have a rotten tooth pulled the other day and original price was less than 2 with shots, rabies, anestisia and pulling the tooth and when i picked him up it was nearly 4 cause they give him a full dental cleaning without my permission so needless to say ol smoky got a free teeth cleaning.

plottpappaw wrote:i took one to have a rotten tooth pulled the other day and original price was less than 2 with shots, rabies, anestisia and pulling the tooth and when i picked him up it was nearly 4 cause they give him a full dental cleaning without my permission so needless to say ol smoky got a free teeth cleaning.

Good for Ol' Smoky! It's good to hear when someone doesn't put up with this kind of stuff, trying to slip in some extra charges.
The vet appointments here in Wa (Gig Harbor), go for $45 to $65, vaccinations are around $15 to $25. I bought 3 separate vaccinations plus a Lyme Vac through Lion Country Supply plus 2nd day shipping for around $60. I just can't see paying $60 to $75 per vaccination, while also taking a chance they might try to slip something else in the bill.
Needless to say, this vet didn't seem to care too much when I showed her my pup's vaccination date chart that was detailed with the shots I gave, plus wormer. She thought she caught me on that one!

you can't blame them for trying to make a living but, you would think being honest and fair and straight forward only treating what they are there for would bring in more business.

yeah, I was going to say something about that. I know they have expenses and such, but they should be truthful. And I know they know more than I do about a dog's health, it just makes it hard to trust them when they say something that doesn't make sense, or suggest something that goes against things you can find out on the internet.

There are many different kinds of heart murmurs, and with 4 different heart valves, a murmur can come from any one, or more than one valve.

Some murmurs are of no consequence, while others are an ominous sign of future morbidity.
Murmurs have many causes, and can arrise from viruses, tumors, parasitc infections, and secondary to many other medical problems. They can also be congenital, meaning present at birth. Like all genetic traits, they can also be inherited in genes.
If more than one pup from a litter has a serious heart murmur, one should prolly take a close look at the breeding stock.....

Your vet can prolly tell you which type and from which valve is affected. Hopefully it will be of little worry.

Severe? how severe? class 3 or class 4? If it is bad enough, she is right and he is not long for this world as a hunting dog. You might get a second opinion on this as I have seen 2 different Vets in the same office, come up with exact opposite opinions on this very issue. The younger Vet said class 4 at 6 weeks. At 12 weeks, before I culled the pup, I had the older Vet check it and he said there was no murmer at all.

Some food for thought: Do any of the littermates have it? Do the parents have it? If so, then it is highly probable that it is genetic. If genetic, well let's just say I wouldn't recomend breeding it and perpetuating the trait. Also, a ton of breeders never take the pups in for their first shots and a check up. Given that, how would the breeder or buyer ever know?

to Spokerider and Liontracker,
I was told by the breeder that no one has said anything about any of the other pups. I was not told what class of heart murmur he has, only that it was Severe/Extreme. I will take him in for a 2nd opinion, but if this vet tells me the it is severe and recommends an Ultrasound, should I get one? The other vet suggested one but said that whatever was found, because of the severity, surgery wouldn't do any good. My thought was why would I spend $300 to find out there's nothing that can be done? it doesn't make sense.

If the second opinion concures, then don't waste your money. If so, then the parents and littermates should go to a Vet for a quick check to rule out genetics. I expect that the others do not show any signs, as this is pretty hard to diagnose on a visual inspection. A stethescope and LOTS of experience is required on this issue.

When you get your second opinion ask him which side the murmur is loudest on, if the pup even has one, and in which location (ie: over the apical thrust, left base, right base, left side, right side) etc... What is the breed of the pup? There are certain differentials for different diseases based on location of the murmur and whether it is systolic, diastolic, and duration of the murmur during each phase. Let us know what the referral vet says and I will give you my opinion.

As for her offering to do an ultrasound that is considered "standard of care" and if she hadnt offered to do it or offered to refer you to someone that could then she could be held liable if your pup was to die all of the sudden. She is covering her ass from the lawyers the ones that really all of you should be bitching about. Vets and Doctors are required to offer a "standard of care" to all clients, and how does she know that you arent the one person that wants to do something no matter the cost to help the pup? A lot of these problems can have something done about them, it just takes money. I think she did the right thing by offering but letting you know that it will just help with identifying the exact problem that maybe nothing could be done about anyways.

The lawyers are really the ones who are making vets run all this extra diagnostic crap and push all of these tests and things on people. When you get sued for every little mistake because you didnt offer or do some test because you thought it was out of the clients price range, you start playing the cover your ass game.

nhunter84 wrote:When you get your second opinion ask him which side the murmur is loudest on, if the pup even has one, and in which location (ie: over the apical thrust, left base, right base, left side, right side) etc... What is the breed of the pup? There are certain differentials for different diseases based on location of the murmur and whether it is systolic, diastolic, and duration of the murmur during each phase. Let us know what the referral vet says and I will give you my opinion.

As for her offering to do an ultrasound that is considered "standard of care" and if she hadnt offered to do it or offered to refer you to someone that could then she could be held liable if your pup was to die all of the sudden. She is covering her ass from the lawyers the ones that really all of you should be bitching about. Vets and Doctors are required to offer a "standard of care" to all clients, and how does she know that you arent the one person that wants to do something no matter the cost to help the pup? A lot of these problems can have something done about them, it just takes money. I think she did the right thing by offering but letting you know that it will just help with identifying the exact problem that maybe nothing could be done about anyways.

The lawyers are really the ones who are making vets run all this extra diagnostic crap and push all of these tests and things on people. When you get sued for every little mistake because you didnt offer or do some test because you thought it was out of the clients price range, you start playing the cover your ass game.

Would you say it is too late to get insurance?
I hate to do it like this, but should I just go to the 2nd vet as if I were only there for the eye thing? I would hate to lose the little guy but there is no way I can afford $1000's of dollars for surgeries and exams. PM me if you'd rather.

I really appreciate your thoughts and insight.

nhunter84 wrote:When you get your second opinion ask him which side the murmur is loudest on, if the pup even has one, and in which location (ie: over the apical thrust, left base, right base, left side, right side) etc... What is the breed of the pup? There are certain differentials for different diseases based on location of the murmur and whether it is systolic, diastolic, and duration of the murmur during each phase. Let us know what the referral vet says and I will give you my opinion.

As for her offering to do an ultrasound that is considered "standard of care" and if she hadnt offered to do it or offered to refer you to someone that could then she could be held liable if your pup was to die all of the sudden. She is covering her ass from the lawyers the ones that really all of you should be bitching about. Vets and Doctors are required to offer a "standard of care" to all clients, and how does she know that you arent the one person that wants to do something no matter the cost to help the pup? A lot of these problems can have something done about them, it just takes money. I think she did the right thing by offering but letting you know that it will just help with identifying the exact problem that maybe nothing could be done about anyways.

The lawyers are really the ones who are making vets run all this extra diagnostic crap and push all of these tests and things on people. When you get sued for every little mistake because you didnt offer or do some test because you thought it was out of the clients price range, you start playing the cover your ass game.

Sorry, forgot, Angus is a Redbone.