Recent gathering of mountain lion experts and most agree .

[Mike Leonard]

At a recent gather of experts on cougar biology most agreed that the managment plans of most states are an absolute joke and are not driven by sound facts only by the personal adgenda of a a select few called the game commisioners.

Read the following and see what you think. Problem is this editorial came from a group that wishes to stop all recreation mountain lion killing and sadly they have better facts than the actual people who are making the rules.


Many of the state game agencies' top lion
authorities recently met to exchange information and report on the status of lions under their jurisdictions. Expert after expert stood up and told their colleagues that there was a huge disconnect between politics and science. Biologists were being shut out of the decision process and all those high-minded management plans were based on emotion and the outdated premise that cougar populations need to be reduced. One even came right out and admitted that the game commissioners in his state were doing whatever they want and the biologists had no input, even when they strongly objected to new projects. Another dismissed the so called Zone Management Approach his state was espousing claiming that the Source, Sink hypothesis (the latest trend in lion management) is essentially meaningless if the entire state is a lion mortality sink.

The problem is that whether it started out that way or not, the entire system of wildlife management has effectively been shaped to fool the American public.

What the public sees are hard working, dedicated state game agency personnel--biologists, game wardens, rangers, etc.--doing their best to manage, maintain, and protect the creatures placed under their care. This is the public face of these institutions. Hidden in the shadows are the true decision makers--the commissioners.

State game commissioners are a small body of individuals (usually around five) appointed by each Governor. More often than not these commissioners are from rural communities and are active members, if not the elected officials, of large hunting organizations. Some commissions give a token nod to non-hunting interests by stipulating that one of the commissioners must represent the public at large, but usually this post goes to one of the Governor's cronies or contributor who does not have a "direct" connection to any particular hunting group already represented on the commission.

So these five people--who aren't even elected--get to decide how their state's lion population is "managed." They are the ones who tell their various state game agencies how many lions they want killed each year. They are responsible for implementing most of the
pro-active lion eradication programs
that theoretically protect deer herds, so their buddies will have a better chance at killing one on opening day. They are the perpetrators of one of the longest running "Good Old Boy" networks in existence today, foisting their self-interest based decisions on the rest of American society.

[hunt14]

Can you please cite the source?

[mike martell]

mike, spot on..thank you for posting....i assume you wrote this for Oregon....i take it you know all of our commissioners? for Oregon we have legislators who are clueless, left to determine the fate of animals in Oregon.....sadly enough we have many big and small game mammals that suffer because of this nonsense....this is why we are in trouble out west. you bring a good perspective, the comment on the people wanting to end recreational sport hunting of mountain lions....we have a local organization that has a woman within that has read and reread her script and sounds like a real authority. hopefully we can get beyond the propaganda......our animals can't withstand much more of feel good politics....bottom line.... more truth and hard facts!....take care.....
mike

[black eye]

Mike,
Ill claim you just described UTAH. As we just recently had appointed by our govonor "John Bair" to our udwr wildlife board. Funny you mention the "clueless" 5 as john is the president of the "sfw" and has or had hounds in utah and knows what has really happened to our lion population. I cant count how many times he has sold the houndsmen of utah and truth out.

I say if we dont listen to these paid professionals then lets find something else for them to do or just can them. JUST STOP TEASIN ME THAT YOU REALLY WANNA MANAGE LIONS IN UTAH!!!!!

JMO

[mike martell]

wildlife management in the hands of politicians is a very dangerous situation. how ever well meaning these people are, they have no clue and are quick to side with special interest. Oregon is in line for the biggest kill off of several indigenous species in the history of our state all thanks to a bleeding heart. we are just a few short days away from having our h.b. 2337 either voted upon or rejected by the Oregon senate? politicians in the dark.....now dictating policy....this makes as much sense as me becoming an advisor for NASA and telling the astronauts how to fly the space shuttle.....ridiculous!....

i wouldn't have a problem with our commissioners being unemployed, but we do have a core of biologist that have dedicated an entire life time to management, one example is Vic coggins in n.e. oregon. this man is "god of the wallowas", his legacy will be divided between the commission, special interest and 16 misinformed senate democrat politicians who drove game management straight off a cliff. these people claim to care about the animals? how the hell can you care about animals and vote to have the predators wipe out the remaining ungulate and small game species?

Oregon doesn't need a pilot program....here is my analogy of the million dollar mule deer management strategy. ADOPT A PREDATOR MANAGEMENT PLAN!,you don't need to cut down more juniper trees or place guzzlers in strategic locations.....you must have the mule deer or its over....FOR THOSE POLITICIANS THAT DON'T KNOW WHAT A PREDATOR IS....BEAR, COUGAR, COYOTES, WOLVES, this is NO Joking matter...the sad reality of it all at the end of the day....all hsus cares about is winning....if it takes the demise of all gods creatures to accomplish this....they won?

any one ever see any business or corporation have a ceo manage only 60% of its employees or business and not fail? this is how i define game management in oregon....end of story!

mike

[Mike Leonard]

Guys,

this pattern is seen in nearly every state that allows sport hunting of lions. This describes New Mexico to a T. I mean the recently revised manangment and quota plan for the entire state does not have one shred of biological sound science behind it. The man that did the most in depth lion study this state has ever seen (10 Years of it). Kenneth Logan said this revised plan is just a super charged version of the former plan that was simply managing for the total elimination of a species. Certain areas of this state will not be as impacted as others because they recieve little or no snow but still they will be impacted becasue we are learning more all the time about the cross dispersion and travel habits of lions. It will just take a little longer in those areas but they have an alternitive plan for this as well. The clause that allows multiple lions to be trapped and snared in livestock damage areas or in big horn sheep areas. a good snare man will take more lions in dry country than a hound guy, and when you have these top paid killers hunting and snaring at the same time they can wipe an entire area out quick. don't beleive that just ask some of the folks in Arizona.....

[pegleg]

Until someone steps up and fights for sound lion/predator management policies it will continue. I believe houndsmen should be one of the loudest most persistent voices in this debate. It has to be brought out into the public view to get the pressure needed to swing the votes back into a realistic management plan.
lions are a sensitive subject for every one and the debate will have to be well thought out and sound to have the desired effect. it must be remembered that anything said or done on the subject will be misused, misquoted, turned inside out and openly attacked by at least one or more groups.
This whole "supply +sink area" is asinine. in order for it to be effective it means you must have equal areas of each. the problem there is in order for the lions to move from a "supply area" to a "sink" the lion densities will be such that it will decimate the prey species in that are to the point it will no longer be able to "supply" the rest of the state with the naturally required number of top predators.
Lions, Wolves, Bears, Coyotes etc. are not trout to be raised and released from state run hatcheries.
The only sound management plan is moderation of numbers and proper use of the natural resources these animals really are.
It's been proven time and again they cannot be banked in huge numbers or eradicated with out tragic results! the only acceptable management practices require the wildlife help pay their way, through revenues from excess population harvest and keeping ALL wildlife numbers balanced in the multitude of ways required to keep they in check but in healthy numbers.
The sad thing is we have the successes and failures of all the generations before us, yet we continue to make the same blunders when many of the answers are there for us to follow. even other countries and continents can be studied and graded as to their success in managing their wildlife.
Not until those with understanding of nature and it's realities stand and scream and stomp like the mindless money orientated special interest groups who are eradicating our wildlife with their laws and blinding the voters by lying and falsifying a few misleading studies.
remember until you stumble upon these fabled lion feedlots that supply our lions, you should look at the "sink theory" with skepticism...

[HoundDawg]

Mike,

Just a comment about one line that caught my attention:

"Biologists were being shut out of the decision process and all those high-minded management plans were based on emotion and the outdated premise that cougar populations need to be reduced. One even came right out and admitted that the game commissioners in his state were doing whatever they want and the biologists had no input, even when they strongly objected to new projects."

I don't doubt this is happening. I didn't see or hear this personally, but I was told that recently a Lion Biologist from Utah went on TV or a Radio program and basically said that guys just needed to get off the roads a little and everything was fine. If you rode a horse or mule and got off the roads a bit the lion population was still fine. Something like that.

So maybe cutting the Biologists out of the decisions might not always be a bad thing.

[Mike Leonard]

Dawg,

I hear you on that one but i have met a few biologists of that ilk and most have been Charter Members of the Mule Deer foundation and love to expound about the dandy mule deer buck they found back in 79 that was killed by a lion, and what a shame that was. Of course they are smarter and hike further than normal hunters so they know what's really going on. LOL!

The Large Carnivore Head Biologist for this state doesn't really care one way or the other what happens to the lions, he is a little more concerned about the bear but not enough to rock the game commisions boat because he knows who signs his check. when they say ahh there are tons of lions aren't there? He says you better beleive it just look at this matrix. LOL!

[johnnie hamilton]

Is the overall lion population really on the decrease like some of you houndman thank? I will agree that I have hunted lions for over twenty years in the national forest and we are still taking the same number of lions in these quotas. The problems is 20 years ago it was me and a couple of other houndman catching a higher number. Now we have to share this sport with alot of guys coming from everywhere. I hunt over a million private acres and I can tell you where the other guys cannot hunt the lion numbers are on the increase. I also hunted west texas growing up and we now have lions where we have never had them.

The biggest problem that ruins all of us that have hunted for a lot of years is that we have to put up with all of the other guys picking up this sport and they will shoot anything just out of spots. So yes there are certain public access locations that are hurting, but when you go to numerous states and find lion sign I do not thank overall population is decreasing but is on the rise. I did not run one day on fresh snow the past couple of years that I had one to multiple tracks.

[nuttybuddy]

Well, I really thought Oregon was the worst....that's why we moved to Idaho. Let me tell you, these people on the IDFG are even worse. Hard to believe, but after attending the meeting in Lewiston a month or so ago, there is still no plan for effective "management" of the wolf population that continues to decimate not only deer, elk, and moose, but untold predations on livestock and dogs. Incredible arrogance outdone only by stupidity..... maybe we should turn it all over to Obama's gang. They sure have "fixed" everything else so far..... Greg

[Neff]

Mike,
Perfect example of Utah this year. It could not be more accurate.

Thanks

[lepcur]

I don't reckon they could have a meeting like that here in Ca. because there are no experts here, at least none with the balls to stand up to the bleeding heart comies of this state. Mike