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Slow and Easy brought up a topic on the communication thread. I wanted to respond to it without taking the thread too far downstream. It sure is a good topic, and I sure like finding out about the papered bobcat dogs. There are not many papered strains that are kept by straight bobcat hunters. Would like to hear about any that are.

slowandeasy wrote:so the old papered dogs mean something to the ones that pay attention to a bloodine and then line breed it for years. a little of topic but it was nice hearing about one of the oldtimers. take care!

Yes, I wish we all had the time, money and patience to keep papered dogs. I have so much respect for those that have. It is a long hard road to keep a papered line and selectively breed it just for bobcat. It is so much quicker and cheaper to outcross. It is so amazing that Finney Clay knows exactly what he will get in each litter of his dogs. They have been papered forever. But what a long time getting to where he is for bobcat.

Ray Mears dogs were papered, of course, and it would be hard to find a West Coast Walker dog, including the high dollar bobcat dogs, that did not have some of his influence. They were combination dogs though, and guys like me did not have the patience to keep the papers and selectively breed them specifically for bobcat. He always tried to encourage me to keep combination dogs. There are a ton of really good reasons for it. One of them is simply financial, and a pretty strong reason, since bobcat hunting is so darn expensive.

Ray had 40 dogs. Every single one of them was at his place for a genetic reason. Each of them played a part in his breeding strategy. That was the old style of frozen semen: keep the dogs alive. He had a huge shed just for dog food. He had a totally white cat he kept in there. He trained that cat to mouse just as slick as he trained a hunting dog. The cat would never try to come out when the door was opened. He knew better. He was raised that way, and knew his role and performed flawlessly.

But you can see what I am talking about with the expense to a breeder of papered dogs. They must slowly and carefully move them toward the goal a generation at a time. Generation by generation they move them away from what they were originally bred for and toward the very specific needs of a bobcat dog. Finney Clay does not keep 40 dogs, but if you start adding up those dogs and pups he has farmed out to top hunters, he probably does. They all play a part in his breeding program. It is a beautiful thing. Each dog is completely and fully tested.

It is so extremely expensive to maintain and develop a pure bred papered line of bobcat dogs. Those few who have done it have my utmost respect. "Respect" is not even the right word, I don't have a word that goes deep enough.

We all rely so heavily on the work of others. There is no way to know how much money and time and people actually figured into this one pure bred treeing walker puppy I could buy for a couple hundred bucks. If I went back a couple hundred years at least, I would have to guess that at least a couple million dollars went into the development of this little bugger. It is a privilege to own something I had to give so little for and others had to give so much for.

Very true! Andy

david, i hope that i didn't come off as to imply registered dogs walk on water. but anything one is looking for is out there already with in the registered breeds. you just have to research a little. as for papers they are just forms of record keeping. i'm not saying one has to make the registries rich, but it is probably the best place to start if you know what you are looking for. finding it is not near as hard as keeping it an reproducing it. once you have what you are looking for your papers can be as simple as index cards in a file. as for a registered bobcat dog. i guess this is where dad and i are a little odd in relation to what i read on here on a regular basis. we expect the same from a hound whether they run rabbitts, coon, bobcat, lion, bear, deer, or people for that matter. (BRAINS) cold nosed, they must have the brains not to over run their nose (walk if neccesary) run to catch and stay hooked. what they are chasing is determined by the man pulling the strings. i just believe to many are trying to reinvent the wheel. this may be from a lack of knowledge as to what strain within a particular breed to look for. as you already know this makes a big diference in the end results. take care!

At one time in my life I wanted papered dogs. Some of the treeing walkers especially the ones that came from Ray there were some good cat dogs, they were not far from the running dogs and moved and worked a track as I see it is how a cat cat dog should. The treeing walkers as all dogs have been bred for different things since the beginning of that breed. There are good dogs in any breed but I do not feel that a true cat dog has been bred true to type yet. The top bobcat hunters that catch a lot of cat have mostly went to a running dog cross or running dog where the treeing is not important. For us out here in the big timber country it is a fine line to have a dog that moves the track well and still is a good tree dog. A lot of dogs can catch a bobcat but until you have hunted with a strait pack of bobcat dogs you do not know what is possible to do with a bobcat dog. There has been a lot of talk about bobcat hunting here but until you have hunted with guys that tree 1 or 2 hundred bobs a year and run strait bobcats you can not really relate to what can be done. I think Finney Clay has done more to breed a bobcat dog than anyone that I know and plan to watch his dogs work a cat someday. Out here I like a dog that will cold trail and locate a tree and move a track fast not barking off track. A dog that hammers a track out is not going to be able to cover ground fast enough to complete several cats in a day. A dog that is always looking for a tree will get you a lot of walks for nothing. A dog that won't strike and trail a cold cat track it would appear that we don't have many cats here. A dog that is a combination cat, lion and bear dog is a jack of all trades and not a master of any even though it mat tree a lot of bobcats. It is each to there own depending on what you want in a dog. Compare it to a Olympic athlete you see very few that compete at more than one sport at that level of expertise. To me a bobcat dog is that elite animal that may not be all that good at anything else, but very good at what they do. Dewey

Fellows, Dad says thanks for the kind words......but he is quick to say that "Papered" does not have to mean registered with any Association. KEEPING RECORDS with descriptions of the talents of each Hound is what "Papered" should mean.

I am about to pull out for Florida so the rest of what he had to say will have to wait till tomorrow night.

But for now Folks should not be closing their minds to the topic.....just start thinking about the Sibs of the Hounds that they are thinking of Breeding to have done; along with what the Sibs of the hound that they have to breed have done...write this down....

More whe I can write longer...he is chomping at the Bit to leave!

Anyone who has caught 200 bobcat in one year useing hounds only, please post your name. You certainly deserve to be reconized, especially if they worked a steady job (other than hunting) to earn a living. Thanks Al Baldwin

Al, you are going to get some names of some South Texas bobcat hunters, I am quite sure. There are guys down there that catch over 300 bobcats. I know of one that caught 5 in one day recently. I will let them speak for themselves or those they personally know of.

dewy, i was afraid it would apear that i was meaning running all of the above with one hound i automaticly think people will read between the lines as i am no good with the typing. and omit every sentance i can. but anything i have ever fed has only run one thing and one thing only. rabbits=beagle hounds=etc.&ect. but i do believe some ya can aim some at different things and get the same results. but i sure am curious as to mixing the running dog stuff in. and maybe i will get a peek some day like we talked about. but i still believe it is more about the least amount of checks (loses) and constant presure combined with the ability to run head high and put the heat on to finish it off. but am by no means to to narrow minded not want to get it done in a speedier fashion if possible catch ya later.

al baldwin wrote:Anyone who has caught 200 bobcat in one year useing hounds only, please post your name. You certainly deserve to be reconized, especially if they worked a steady job (other than hunting) to earn a living. Thanks Al Baldwin

al, i sure love your posts! but i am probably worse than nolty, i'm not sure i even qualify as a cat tormenter i just know after 47 years what i expect of a hound know matter what i put it down on. but i have learned never to say never take care!

Thanks David, I have heard texas is the bobcat capitol of the world. I was hoping anyone from Oregon that has caught 200 bobs with dogs in one year would step forward. I certainly have never heard of any local cat hunters coming close to 200. Infact I have been told by a couple good cat hunters in this area, they have drove close to 200 miles some days without getting a jump track. Some days they just don/t move. Slow I am not saying never, just hoping some one local that catches 200 cats a saeson will step forward. Thanks Al Baldwin

Al, Tom Barnes,Elmer Blankenship,[not sure of 200 on these 2]--Butch Nelson,George Justus and I hear of a couple of others who lived up by Forks,Wash.
Al,I'm perplexed why anybody would care if somebody worked another job in order to do or not do this.All of us who've bought dogs/horses/cattle/vehicles etc.etc.etc. usually allways go to the people who've made a particular focus[being dogs in this case]their life in order to acheive the finest product/animal.It should in no way IMO mean a negitive or positve as most people are skeptical when you tell them 50 or more for the year with or without another job.You probably won't get any of the guys above to tell about their success,because some have passed away and the others allready see all the doubting on here and don't fancy being called a liar or story stretcher.
As to the question relative to this thread,I'd love to hear about everyone's success' with apapered breed,my personal experience[limited]would form my opinion that the Finley River strain of walker would be my choice to start with for bobcat/papered dogs.As these were the last 2 that Dewey and I tried and both made dogs who catch cat and both locate/tree dogs,that could strike and trail.I got in debt on a personal note on a piece of equipment and was forced to sell mine.

I know of alot of houses cheif blood dogs around here that do well on bobcats. I have one papered dog now but he's a young un yet. Most of the dogs here I've seen are grade dogs with tree blood. Only running dog cross I've seen is my Pepper dog (that I know of) in our area.

I have limited experience around papered hounds but the papered dogs I have been around that impressed me on bobcat were Old line Finley River Bred Walkers, Woodscreek Loose Bruce Bred Walkers, Old line Nance Walkers, and Tashudas Arkie bred Blueticks. I have seen a top notch Papered Cascade Bred Plott that was an outstanding all around cat hound. A Michigan Swamp Rooster English Redtick that very few cats could shake.

These hounds were hunted on cats in high desert country conditions and I dont know how they would have performed in other areas or regions, but did very well on cats in the high desert freezing cold rimrock conditions.

I'm sure there are some other papered hounds that would do great on cats, I just haven't been around them.

Tim did not mean to perflex you. My comment about working a full time job, was just because I know how hard it was to hunt & work at the same time. And thought anyone who earns thier living hunting, (as a government or private wpuld sure have a better chance) of reaching those type numbers, than someone like your self. Ihave been told Forks used to be the bobcat capitol of the Pacific Northwest, & probly still is. But, in a phone conservation with George Justice a few years ago, recall he stated the bob population was not what it used to be. As for papered hounds, can/t figure why some keep putting them down. If one searches very far there is a lot of papered hounds behind most of the best cat hounds in this area. And is most likely what put the tree into most. It has been a long time since the dogs I/ve kept were pure walker & there is not much reason to keep papered dogs for most in this area. There have been some good cat hounds in this area that were papered. Sorry to hear you had to sell that hound, been in a few situations where I needed cash in my younger days. And my post was to ask anyone who catches 200 cats in a year time to post thier name. I also realize anyone who earns thier living as a private cat hunter is working a job & not one that I would desire. Tim a good hound is a good hound & hounds have not a clue if registered or grade. Close saying have nothing against running dogs. Breed your hounds as you wish, think we all need to realize there are good dogs in all breeds. Thanks Al Baldwin

Tim

I hunted with Elmer a little bit before he got sick. What a cat hunter! He wasn't one to brag at all, but one story that sticks out for me was one day he had caught 6 cats and was headed home when a cat jumped in the road. Well he gets out to let the dogs out of the box and they wouldn't even wiggle. So he gets in the cab and grabs a bag of cookies and tried to coax em out that way. I don't remember if he got em out or not but I would of liked to seen it. The hay days in Forks must of been something. I have a friend that went up and caught 5 before noon one day, he figured he could of caught 8 but his passenger had a bad back and couldn't handle the ride any longer. Give Kevin B. a call some time and get him to tell ya some stories