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It seems that these scenario's turn into some good threads. I have a track style vs. nose power scenario I want to put out there and see where it goes.

Here’s a scenario,

You are road hunting your hounds out in front of the truck and you see the dogs appear to all at about the same time throw their heads in the air and wind a track up on the hill. All the hounds shoot up the hill to go find the track. You hear Loose Lips and Jabber Jaws start opening on the track. You get out of your rig and listen, you hear Loose Lips and Jabber Jaws are opening fairly steady and moving the track. Suddenly you hear Zip Lips open on the track out in front of Loose Lips and Jabber Jaws by a few hundred yards.
I want to ask you in this scenario which hound in your opinion has more nose power? The hounds that opened on the track first or the hound that stayed tight mouthed until the track was lined out, but took the track further without ever opening on the track?

I would say nose power had nothing to do with it.Brains or luck probably had more to do with it than nose.If this happened on a regular basis I would say brains ( the way the dog was wired or bred not nessisarily how smart the dog is) was the reason.If babble mouth spent his share of time on the front end of races I would sat he was probably just unlucky.If one dog were to regularly leave the road moving a track while the other stood in the road acting like they couldnt smell a track then it might be a nose problem but more likely just a lack or efort problem. Take care,Larry

AHHH Charlie, now you want us to KNOW not only what our Hounds are doing....but WHY!

Larry points out that if Zip Lips only does this occasionally it is probably luck…if he regularly does this then BRAINS is to blame. Nose Power may have little to do with this.

Now with Dad’s Hounds both of these Styles appear in each litter. This is good as both styles are needed on a Track where we hunt. In our experience neither style is better than the other….both are/will be needed sometime in the Race.

In Dad’s mind, nose power in the different Hounds in this scenario, may not be that different. Without Hunting with Jabber Jaws and Zip Lips every day it would be tough to state which has the better NOSE and which has the better Brain….not that it would matter as long as Jabber Jaws shut up and pulled to Zip Lips and Zip could hold the Track until help arrived (if not he just hurt you more than Jabber babbling on the other end could).

I know that different skill sets are needed in different areas, however you have outlined just what we want to see and need where we hunt….that Football Team analogy….Jabber and Loose Lips are the Lineman who steadily move the Track forward….Ole Zip Lips (the Wide Receiver) swings out and finds where the Cat is headed, sings out and the Pack moves to him, shortening the Cat’s lead.

Moving the Track in this Style is EFFECIENTLY closing the distance on the Cat, thus increasing the odds of a Positive outcome!

CRA I have sold some good hounds in years past because they would take and older track and trail out of hearing without opening enought to know where they went. Realize those type hounds at times can catch a cat the more open hounds may not catch. But for me I hunt to hear the hounds work. If a hound opens freely as they advance the track that is what I want. If they stand and bark in one place I tone. Does not hurt to have one in the pack be a little tight on track, lets me know when the track is warming up. As nose power have found it very hard to determine the hound with the better nose most times, unless one hound performs daily showing the better nose. Over the years one hound better nose today, tomorrow another will show more nose. With those type, maybe just who feels better on certain days? Just my experience Thanks Al Baldwin

I like to hear hounds move the track to, my father in laws hounds all are open on track when we run bears so we know where there going, we hunt real deep canyons so it's nice to know what ridge they busted over so we can get around and hear where they wen't and my dogs haven't been on a bobcat yet so idk but there open on track to and i enjoy hearing it, if they don't catch as many cats because of it hopefully they catch some cause thats what i like to hear

CRA, MR. DEWEY, JC, SOUTH TEXAN, MR. AL, & all the rest of you all, what do you think about a "Cat Hound" Dictionary thread.....so often we are not speaking the same language about what the Hounds are doing.

I interpreted CRA to have Ole Zip Lips swinging out looking for where the track could be found...yet Mr. Al appears to think Zip was silently "Drifting" the track before opening. Both are possible scenarios. Before the Garmin's it was tough to get a handle on what was really happening...Drifting silently or Swinging looking ahead...now we can watch and see.

I do not want to change the Topic, but you all study on this “Dictionary” idea and lets see what develops!

I personally think that a more open dog does not mean that they have a better or worse nose per say, I just think they are more hard wired to fire off with a smaller amount of scent on the ground or in the air. I have one dog that does not make a peep while cold trailing but 99% of the time she's out in front and when she fires up you know your just about to start walking in. This also translates over to boxing her as well, she won't strike unless its a hot track but, when my more open dog strikes a cold track she knows something is there and can smell it but won't open. This perplexes me because I believe she has a better nose then my more open dog but is just not as vocal about it. My more open dog will be a fine rig dog down the stretch because he has that hair trigger and he is the one that lets me know where the track is taking us and I also like the semi silent dogs for the simple fact that you know just when things heat up. Good thread guys

Marshall

Hi Marshall, I/m not good at writeing , read once that a dogs nervious system determines how vocal they are on track. That person stated some dogs take less scent to trigger thier bark. Sure nothing wrong with a tighter mouth dog in one/s pack. I believe I hunted with a littermate to one of your dogs this winter. He was tight untill the track was about jumped, but ran and treed nice. Owner said he was the fastest dog he owned. I have a dog that is conservative with his mouth & he is capable of getting out on some tracks. Have found if game is thin & with no snow needs some dogs that are open trailers to make hunting enjoyable for me. Just what makes the owner happy is all that matters. Good hunting Al Baldwin

Great responses guy's,

After trying a lot of dogs from different strains and breeds I formed my opinion on nose power and track style. I believe a hounds nose power and track style comes from their desire and drive bred into the hound backed by determination to catch what their nose power is pulling them to (in my case the bobcat). After thinking back to a lot of different hounds I tried I can’t remember one hound that made my cut that didn't have a tremendous amount of desire, drive and determination to catch cats and end what they started out on.

Some may not have been as opened mouthed on an old tough cat trail but I believe if the hound has that burning desire to run to catch and determination to finish a track, backed with brains and tremendous amounts of natural bred in abilities to pursue bobcat they will do whatever it takes to end the trail and catch their quarry with track style.

Mr. Clay,
You are exactly correct. It takes a football team of different talent's and trait's backed by a great head coach that knows the cat and hounds. Has an eye for talent in a hound. A handler needs to know when corrections are needed to bring a hound to its fullest potential.

Mr. Baldwin,
I dont like a tight mouthed hound, but at the same time I dont like too much mouth on a track either. I dont mind a mouthy hound as long as they are putting some real estate between each bark. I prefer the happy medium type.

The dogs I caught the most cats with in my region was open mouth trail hounds, but when jumped they went semi-silent. That type of track style is needed in the high desert country where the trees are spread out and the rock piles are massive. That type of track style caused them to tree more cats than put in rock piles.

Mr. Clay,
In California the Garmin Tracking collars are outlawed so I have never seen them work. I cant wait to use them sometime. I believe they will answer a lot of questions.

Al, I think I know who your talking about. I really like these dogs and can't find many holes in their game and your partner is right they are fast. My female who's tight mouthed trees real good and is a good locating dog. Shel stand on her hind legs walking around like a bear when she locates and then sits back and hacks em off when she gets it figured out. It's amazing to see two completely different hounds out of the same stock and put all of their strengths together to get it done. This post describes my hounds. One is the open mouthed musician who lets you enjoy the cold trailing while the other sneaks up on the cat silently and i believe the silent one actually has the better nose. She used to get out on my male by quite a bit all silently but he picked it up big time this year and they fight for the lead now. I have recently added some pups that I believe down the road will contribute quite a bit. I'm trying my hand at this running dog stuff . Sorry to ramble guys. Again, good thread.

Marshall

Marshall wrote: My female who's tight mouthed trees real good and is a good locating dog. Shel stand on her hind legs walking around like a bear when she locates and then sits back and hacks em off when she gets it figured out. One is the open mouthed musician who lets you enjoy the cold trailing while the other sneaks up on the cat silently and i believe the silent one actually has the better nose. She used to get out on my male by quite a bit all silently but he picked it up big time this year and they fight for the lead now. Marshall

Marshall,

It sounds like that female would be absolutely lethal on cats in the high desert rimrock country that I hunt. Hunting cold nosed tight mouth hounds in the desert country will cause you to tree more cats rather than putting them in a crack in the rocks. Hounds like that will Ambush the cats before the cat makes it to their favorite hole.

When I say tight mouth hound I dont mean silent on track. I mean a dog that puts hundreds of yards between each bark while trailing. I'm talking about a hound that will change rock piles without opening on track, while continually gaining ground on the cat. Hunting hounds like this you will hear an explosion of barks once jumped then normally about a 2-5 minute jumped race before treeing. I normally only hunt 3 dogs maximum all with the same cold nosed semi-silent track style. That type of dog is what I found works in my region if I ever want to actually see a cat in a tree rather than shining a light into a crack in the rocks.

AHHH CRA,

You wrote “In California the Garmin Tracking collars are outlawed so I have never seen them work. I cant wait to use them sometime. I believe they will answer a lot of questions.”

Let me tell about a place where it is legal to run a Bobcat year round, OK to use Garmins, has a balanced State Budget, has a State Surplus, a 1.5% State income Tax, the 2nd lowest Property Tax rates in the Nation…..and only 3 Bobcat Hunters in the whole State…No I had better not….Folks will think I am telling tall tales again!

You also wrote "That type of dog is what I found works in my region if I ever want to actually see a cat in a tree rather than shining a light into a crack in the rocks." This style of Hound intergrated in the Pack will help in any region. IMO


Thanks too for defining your interpretation of "tight mouth".

Thanks guys, hounds that put hundreds of yards between barks can sure catch more cats. In most areas I hunt one would hear very little of the trailing. Most hounds, even the mouthy ones will tighten up thier voice on cats that move ahead, making it hard to get that tight jump. In my opinion the true cat hounds are the ones that can suceed catching cats while give enough voice making a cat race enjoyable to hear. I have had times when a tight mouthed hound, that became silent on those move ahead cats, got out on the pack. Observed for hours as the silent dog tried to catch that cat, sometimes it worked, often it did not. That hound had a sixth gear, some cats can learn to keep that distance. Guess that what makes it interesting. Something I/ve experienced. thanks Al Baldwin

I will take the zip lips dog every time just because he hasnt opened has nothing to do with nose power! He will be the dog more times than not leading the race. He has enough nose power to get it done along with track savy which I call (drifting). It seems a great bobcat dog just knows where to go to keep on the track. great post CRA. Andy