BigGameHoundsmen.com

I probably never will understand the mentalities of "dog people" when it comes to pups.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how some people can blow smoke and build hype and sell pups before they are even born, and then, even have a waiting list! Let me say at this time that I am speaking about pups that don't come from lines or breeders that have a name, much less a history of proven dogs.

Last summer there were 4 different people that got hold of me, requesting a pup "when I had some". I had a litter on the ground, and I said that I didn't know what I was going to end up doing with them. Each of the people said that they wanted to know if I was going to sell any, even after I told them that they wouldn't be cheap.

The first guy that I called back crawfished, and dang near broke his neck as he retreated!! I gave the pup that I had picked out for him to a guy that was short on dogs and always wondered about the genetics that I have.

Eventually the rest of the guys waffled as well. One guy didn't return my call for a couple months, so I never worried about him again. It all worked out, as I had promised a pup to Wesley, a buddy of mine, and Mike Bency wanted a female -- I had given him a male out of the first litter. Brett Vaughn ended up with the last one, since I couldn't get it to California before those guys got overwhelmed with pups themselves. On a side note, the guy that ran backbards at my price ended up buying a pup from Larry Hendrix for $250.00 more than I was asking, AND he picked it up from me!!!!

I am planning on two litters this summer, and I have been talking to people about farming some of them out for a couple of years, so that I won't have to put up with so much BS from tire kickers.

So, what's your thoughts on all of this, and why are people so easily swayed toward "the latest and greatest"?????

When you buy a product, most people will go by what they see and hear in quick notice rather than doing research and make a proper choice. When I bought my first two pups, I did very little research and got lucky. Next pup same deal, the latest one I heard alot of the owner of the sire, talked met with him a few times, I even hauled the sire from a field trial for the guy, and so far the pup is all I am hoping for.

Benny, you better be expecting a few more litters than just two, this french dog has been real interested in a couple of your girls....and boys too I think! I even caught him eyeing your mule, whats up with that?

benny, i sure would not let people and their puppy ideas worry ya. what i am about to say will probaly get the experts pantys in a wad. but i am willing to bet that most of them only believe what they read on here. or in some book. and would be willing to bet that they couldn't fill a thimble with the amount of litters they have raised. puppys are a gamble, and that is the cold hard truth. and the saying (proven cross) is way, way, way, over used. the amount of time i see it used, i would be led to believe that top hounds should be falling out of the trees. and also i hear when some want to apear that they are christ like in their ability to train hounds. that it is all about them and if a pup did not turn out it was the buyers fault. well this is B.S. good handlers (coaches ). can get the most out of a hound that is posible. but when Vince Lombardi went to the Red Skins he did not remold losers. he got rid of the bums and went to rebuilding. and he was dealing with inteligent humans not hounds. and i don't think there is much doubt that he was at the top of the coaching game. anyway all of the above is true but everyone has to go through the learning process. and sadly when people are spending their money alot of people want to be lied to. i guess it makes them feel better about spending their money. also some could play this game forever and never know anymore than when they started. there for saying all of their pups turn out great. but really beauty is in the eye of the beholder. what is good in one persons eye a top houndsmen wouldn't feed. i gota go, but i think ya get my drift on the subject. take care!

slowandeasy wrote:benny, i sure would not let people and their puppy ideas worry ya. what i am about to say will probaly get the experts pantys in a wad. but i am willing to bet that most of them only believe what they read on here. or in some book. and would be willing to bet that they couldn't fill a thimble with the amount of litters they have raised. puppys are a gamble, and that is the cold hard truth. and the saying (proven cross) is way, way, way, over used. the amount of time i see it used, i would be led to believe that top hounds should be falling out of the trees. and also i hear when some want to apear that they are christ like in their ability to train hounds. that it is all about them and if a pup did not turn out it was the buyers fault. well this is B.S. good handlers (coaches ). can get the most out of a hound that is posible. but when Vince Lombardi went to the Red Skins he did not remold losers. he got rid of the bums and went to rebuilding. and he was dealing with inteligent humans not hounds. and i don't think there is much doubt that he was at the top of the coaching game. anyway all of the above is true but everyone has to go through the learning process. and sadly when people are spending their money alot of people want to be lied to. i guess it makes them feel better about spending their money. also some could play this game forever and never know anymore than when they started. there for saying all of their pups turn out great. but really beauty is in the eye of the beholder. what is good in one persons eye a top houndsmen wouldn't feed. i gota go, but i think ya get my drift on the subject. take care!

Slowandeasy,

Good post and straight to the truth.

About proven crosses, Dad made a cross once that produced a litter of cat hounds that were first rate all around hounds. We couldn't wait to do that cross again. When the next litter hit the ground everyone in our circle darn near fought over them. To our surprise there wasn't one of them worth feeding. I dont know how or why it happened but the first cross was diamonds and the 2nd was dust. There was no possibility of another male because there was only one male at Dad's place, and all the females were heavily kenneled.

This experience proved to me that the proven cross theory isn't always so proven.

cra, thanks, i sure am glad i'm not the only one that has seen that senario play out. and for what it's worth it didn't surprise me that ya did. pups are a labor of love. ya either love working with them, or ya probably should leave them alone. they are definately not the most intelegent way, nor the most inexpensive way to get into the game. smart people buy the best running hound they can afford and build off of it. that is were the eye of a good handler really shines. the trained eye can normally have things falling in to place in a couple of years. but with this pup deal it is amazing how a few vidios, and a few cheerleaders can sky rocket the cost of the pup gamble. so again benny don't be to upset, as there will always be some that are good at making other peoples money vanish. and i believe it was P T Barnum that said there is a sucker born every day and none die. so i guess there will always be someone for them to (SAIL) their pups to. take care!

Couldn't agree more..Great posts slowandeasy..

These are some of the exact attitudes that I am talking about. I am, by no means, an expert. I do, however, try to learn from others that seem to have an edge over "the competition". The two most common differences between them and me were ALWAYS -- 1) They seemed to be able to hunt more.
2) They consistantly produced better dogs than me.

All I could address when I first came to this conclusion was the dogs, as I had to keep feeding my wife and kids, and I couldn't spend the time or money it took to hunt every day. When I got around those other guys, they seemed to have dogs that were related to each other, and they wouldn't let just anyone have any.

I did the hound dog crap shoot for years and years. Every now and then I would even get lucky and get a good dog.

Once I was around some of those guys long enough, my next obstacle was money. It seemed that for those dogs, I just couldn't justify that kind of money on a normal crap shoot like I was used to. The problem with that attitude was that I had just forgotten item #2-- they CONSISTANTLY produced better dogs. ALL of them would tell me that it cost just as much money to feed a good dog as it did to feed a junker, and that if I were spend my money on one or two GOOD dogs, instead of 8 or 10 mediocre to sorry dogs, I would be money ahead. Well, it will always be easier to invest $5000.00 in 20 dogs, one at a time than it will be to buy one dog right now for $5000.00. THAT DOESN"T SOLVE THE PROBLEM THAT I HAD.

The first time that I spent $500.00 on a pup, I just knew that I would end up filing for bankrupcy!!! I ended up getting through it, and that pup exceeded my hopes and expectations. So, for that roll of the dice, I was good.

Let me sort of change the suject for just a bit. If genetics are worth millions of dollars in race horses, and genetics are worth thousands of dollars in range cattle, and genetics are worth thousands of dollars in running Greyhounds, and genetics are worth hundreds of dollars in bird dogs, why aren't genetics viewed with more weight and value in all situations when considering animals?

So, I have changed the way that I roll the dice. It cost me more money up front, that's for sure. However, everyone will believe what they want, and all for their own reasons, but I will NEVER go back to being a part of the ignorant (whether by choice, or stupidity) masses.

If more people would cut mediocre stud horses, there would be more first class geldings, and if more hound people would concentrate on improving their genetics, this BS crap shoot that seems to be the eccepted norm would be a thing of the past.

There are still good deals on pups with top genetics out there from time to time. I see all the backlash that Mike Leonard gets sometimes for endorsing someone or their dogs, but if you don't want to believe Mike, do your own homework. I'm a nobody, so what I have to say doesn't matter, but those Nance Walkers that Mike put on here from California are the real deal, and CHEAP!!!!!!! I personally know those guys over there, and they have one of the most focused line breeding programs in this world today.

So, for all of you folks that enjoy rolling dice, don't get your little girl panties in a bunch, keep rolling the dice. For the rest of you, spend some time asking questions, doing your homework, spend a little money on ONE dog or prospect instead of 4, and see if it doesn't work out better.

I think it is a bit funny at times how folks always want pups out of a proven cross. Then on the other side of the coin. Many will tell you how the first cross is always the best cross. How the first litter a bitch produces is the best one. Sure can make you scratch your head.

Steve White wrote:I think it is a bit funny at times how folks always want pups out of a proven cross. Then on the other side of the coin. Many will tell you how the first cross is always the best cross. How the first litter a bitch produces is the best one. Sure can make you scratch your head.

yes steve it sure can make ya scratch your head. and really all you can do is a little bit of research and hope for the best. you can try and stack the cards in your favor but reality is it's still a crap shoot.

benny, you are right in your thoughts, but anyone that tells ya they have genetics figured out i would run from! and i believe it gets worse in the horse game. (bigger b.s. storys and fatter wallets after all do ya know anyone that has won the kentucky derby with any consistancy. there is a pile of money to be made out there if someone ever gets it figured out. but i think for the time being there are probably much better investments out there. i'm going to continue to do a little research, try and put the ODDS in my favor, and keep it fun. take care!

Benny, I wouldn't worry about it. It happens to everyone. Shoot at least you don't have guys calling you about getting a pup when their real intention is to try to get a date. I think I have sold more pups because a guy is interested in more than just a pup.

Posse..
Quit showing off that kitty and u may sell more puppies....lol

Reading more depth, there is more head scratching. All the talk about genetics. Was said how worth hundreds in bird dogs. That has always made me scratch my head. Big dollar pups, with super genetics. But they need to have all sorts of tests done first for this and that. Things I don't even know what the letters stand for anymore. For the most part this is not done or needed with hounds. Which is odd since many bird dog owners/breeders look down on hound people. Not even worthy of riding the short bus. But in general based on genetic abnormalities. Hounds don't have the problems of bird dogs. You don't have to speculate long on why. Hound breeders, and owners. For the most part don't breed these dogs. Something comes up that will affect performance, and that dog is gone. Fixed at best so taking out the bad from the gene pool. I believe that is starting to change a little with more hounds being used as show dogs, and pets. But overall, if something is wrong we deal with it!