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Being new to this forum, I have spent a great deal of time reading the twenty some odd pages of posts about bobcat hunting, Very interesting and enlightening reading when one is capable of 'weeding' through the bs and the facts about this sport. Having done so, I have become aware that there is far less diversity in the breeds of dogs used in the deep south when compared to other areas. Hunters in most areas use a wide variety of breeds while most hunters in the south use "running" bred dogs. I know the obvious reasons for this and personally agree, however, I also know human nature. There surely are those who choose other breeds because of personal preferences......or if for no other reason those who choose to "walk to a different beat".

Please share your knowlege of these hunters and their dogs.

Thanks

John

john, i am just curious as to your own personal reasons for the choice of running dogs. as what colbalt said on the other topic all tree hounds originated from running hounds. i believe the english coon hound was one of the only ones that consentraited on performance only, and let color fall as it may. but they are trying very hard to ruin that. as some would have all the breeds go the way of the irish setter, paying more attention to pretty colors. take care!

This Thread is a much better place to give My Opinion as to answering Mr. John’s Question and respond to Mr. Al’s post on the Line Breeding Post.

Mr. John, the main reason that “Running Hounds” are used in the South and Southeast is due to the Terrain and Vegetation that the Cats are hunted and pursued in; this is some of the worst places to be found to Catch or Tree a Cat. If a Hunter/Houndsman wants to be successful more often than not the Ecosystem where you Hunt will dictate what kind of Hounds you need.

Next your PURPOSE, whether you are Hunting for Fur, Predator control, or the Music of the Hounds dicates the Kind of Dog/Hound to be used.

Now if you just go Hound Hunting to get out of the House and Enjoy the Outdoors any Hound/Dog will work…just the other Day I encouraged another Gentleman from MS to look at using his Kemmer Curs to pursue Bobcat….this was do to the places he had to Hunt and his intent…..he was not going to be as serious as Mr. Harold, Jimmy and Jim or us.

However if you want to successfully end the majority of the Races of the Cats you jump in the South and Southeast then Outside Bred “Running Hounds” are what you will need.

Now in the Northwest several very Good Hunters (more than Mr. Dewey) have told me that their Cats are the easiest Cats to catch that they have seen; The Trailing is the toughest part of their Hunt. A Cat has Rocks to crawl around and hide in but none of the Bad Cutovers with Hurricane blow downs re-growing in Blackberry Briars that you have.

Yea I know that I am going to “Ruffle” those feathers as Mr. Al says, but up in the NW and West, they do not need as much Hound as is needed where you are…..I know that is going to meet with lots of resistance but very few Cat Hunters get out of their home areas to Hunt….we have hosted several of the Best from the West, NW, and upper mid West all agree (and they are not just blowing smoke) that this country is the worst for a Hound that they have seen (and they did not see the Katrina damaged country that you have).

Now you have to deal with the “Bottom” found in the Tree Bred Hounds…if you are going to hunt in your country once a week and have a Race maybe every other time you go, then you will have a “Hound” to Hunt. But now if you are going to go Hunting three times a week and possibly have a 2.5 to 3 hour race on night one…with Treebred Hounds you might be out of Hounds for a Week or so. Running Hounds, if they are in SHAPE, just water them, rest them an hour or so, then go run another. As you know Mr. Harold raises some of the Best TW to be found in the Coon Hunting Game, there is reason he uses what he does in his Cat Pack. The TW while good for most 1st Races just do not have the Gasoline in their Tank for a Bad (we think GOOD) Race lasting multiple Hours, or the second Race in a night!


Now Mr. Al is right when he writes: “COLBALT sure has some valid points. Nothing against running dogs or line breeding, but, in this area have noticed most successful cat hunters have a mixture of tree hounds with a small amount of running dog behind them. And if they hunt running stock, usually have a tree bred hound or two to do the locating & hold those running dogs at the tree. I have noticed most who breed thier own lines tend to over look some weak areas in thier hounds. Believe its just human nature, kinda like how we treat our kids. For the hunters who cannot devote a tremendous amount of time to hunting I believe line bred running stock would be tough to train for enjoyable cat hunting. Do not mean to ruffle feathers, but, have noticed dogs that are not close related on average have far less health issues & tend to have a longer hunting life. I believe one can do a form of line breeding by selecting hounds with simular traits & whose ancestors have possessed these same traits & not close related. but, then what the heck do I know???? Bred and hunt your hounds the way you prefer, & besure you not take hunting so serious it takes the fun out of it. One never knows when health can do that for you. Enjoyed these post. Thanks Al Baldwin”

He is sure correct, in HIS Country that is ALL the Hound that is needed to be successful.

And he is Correct when talking about Hound breeders and Parents overlooking Flaws and Faults in their Kids and Hounds. Yet the SUCCESSFULL ones both Parents and Hound Breeders dedicate their Time and Lives to GETTING it right! They never get too “In Love” with a Child or Pup to express TOUGH Love when needed (unfortunately we can not cull kids…no matter how bad some need it) My Wife just told me that the correct way of saying this is that we LOVE our Kids and Hounds ENOUGH to Correct them when needed....so there BJ!

Mr. Al writes: “For the hunters who cannot devote a tremendous amount of time to hunting I believe line bred running stock would be tough to train for enjoyable cat hunting.”

Mr. Al in my opinion you could not be more wrong. When you find a Strain of Line Bred Hounds (and it don’t matter whether they are TreeBred or Running Hound) that have the Style and Manner that you like, these are the easiest to train as generally all they need is a little guidance and direction as to what is the Game of Choice!

Mr. Al, I/We do agree that we need to keep the FUN in what we do, however it has not mattered whether it was Little League Baseball, High School Football, Steer Roping, Horse Showing, Playing checkers……Winning is a lot more FUN than Losing! JMO

slowandeasy wrote:john, i am just curious as to your own personal reasons for the choice of running dogs. as what colbalt said on the other topic all tree hounds originated from running hounds. i believe the english coon hound was one of the only ones that consentraited on performance only, and let color fall as it may. but they are trying very hard to ruin that. as some would have all the breeds go the way of the irish setter, paying more attention to pretty colors. take care!

Thanks for your post.

I am not sure how to respond to your post but I will try.

I do not have "personal reasons for the choice of running hounds" as I own none which is why I asked the question about breeds used in the south. I certainly have no opinion on English coonhounds or Irish setters.

I am recently retired. I have hunted with dogs (hounds mostly) all of my life but have never bobcat hunted to any extent. I am exploring the possibilities of starting (hence spending endless hours reading the posts). If you have knowlege of bobcat hunters in the south (past or present) and their hounds please share with me.

Thanks again and take care!

John

john, sorry i misunderstood you. i thought you were already useing running dogs. and i was trying to see what the main differences were between them and the tree dogs of today. as all i can compare in my mind is tree dogs of 25 to thirty years ago.


quote dads dog boy:Now you have to deal with the “Bottom” found in the Tree Bred Hounds…if you are going to hunt in your country once a week and have a Race maybe every other time you go, then you will have a “Hound” to Hunt. But now if you are going to go Hunting three times a week and possibly have a 2.5 to 3 hour race on night one…with Treebred Hounds you might be out of Hounds for a Week or so. Running Hounds, if they are in SHAPE, just water them, rest them an hour or so, then go run another. As you know Mr. Harold raises some of the Best TW to be found in the Coon Hunting Game, there is reason he uses what he does in his Cat Pack. The TW while good for most 1st Races just do not have the Gasoline in their Tank for a Bad (we think GOOD) Race lasting multiple Hours, or the second Race in a night!

this quote is what i was hoping to hear. as even the older tree dogs i dealt with i had doubts as to them being able to cut it day in and day out. but c.j. answered what i was fishing for. there will be some that might dispute this but probably have not seen long runs back to back and possibly even a third. coupled with hunting or roading time in between.


quote: al and c.j.
And he is Correct when talking about Hound breeders and Parents overlooking Flaws and Faults in their Kids and Hounds. Yet the SUCCESSFULL ones both Parents and Hound Breeders dedicate their Time and Lives to GETTING it right! They never get too “In Love” with a Child or Pup to express TOUGH Love when needed (unfortunately we can not cull kids…no matter how bad some need it) My Wife just told me that the correct way of saying this is that we LOVE our Kids and Hounds ENOUGH to Correct them when needed....so there BJ!


LMAO!! c.j. my kids told their coaches, when the coaches said they were sorry for being so ruff on them, you're not to ruff my dad is bobby knight and vince lombardi all under one hide. take care!

Dads dogboy,

I typed a 'nice' reply to you and it obviously disappeared into space!!!!

Anyway, I read your reply and Mr. Al's post that were posted while I was typing. I agree for the most part with both of you; especially Mr. Al's comment about enjoying hunting and your comments about having the right dog for the terrain. This is the type of info I was fishing for. I figure I have maybe ten years of hunting alone left in me. I would be foolish to not investigate the possibilities available to me just as I would be foolish not to profit from the experience of others. Heck, I do not have the time nor the desire to reinvent the wheel. I need to use the 'wheels' you guys have already invented.

Slowandeasy,

Thank you for your second reply. I was afraid I had accidently knocked over some can of worms in your first one. LOL!

John

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I'd take the front dogs,the ones that stuck on the game I put them on and the ones that located and treed till I got there.For our country I'd prefer the dogs with an 1/8th to 3/8's running blood in them,in hopes of intellegence,track speed,and the ability to locate and tree,if I were going to specify color--red or red and white,nose--long square muzzle[big nose] and ears--low set,with med.long to long in length,tight running dog feet,and enough hair to keep'em warm and protected in heavy cover.Easy going disposition and trainable,and yes I do know of dogs being bred and produced with these characteristics and traits.

Well here we go again…Treebred Hounds the Greatest thing since Sliced Bread….Running Hounds can not Tree!

Mr. John is Mining for information that will help him to decide what will work for him in his country. Talking to you fellows in the Northwest would be like Vince Lombardi trying to build the 1960s Green Bay Packers out of today’s Arena Football League Players. The Game is similar but a heck of a lot different.

Mr. John, there are some GOOD Houndsmen along the East Coast that lurk around here on BGH….they do not want to engage in Conversations for obvious reasons, but may be Poon, VAcathunter, Rod Vinson, Charlie Curlin, Friends of Mr. Jr. Aspenwall and Glen Mullis and several of the other successful Cat Hunters will PM or call you with advise that is worth listening to. If they do go Hunt with them, see the kind of Hounds they are using…be sure and notice that they have Hounds who Tree and Tree well and consistently in Tall Timber!

U.R.E. writes: “It has been written in books as well as on this form that the tree hound is just a cull running dog but I guess I see it differently.”

Mr. Don I do not remember reading this….I darn sure have never said that Tree Bred Hounds are Culls. In Fact I have helped several Folks in Regions that need that kind of Hound get ones that could, and have, helped those Hunters produce Game. In the right places and in the right circumstances GOOD ones are darn nice Hounds to listen to and watch work!

Your analogy of 50 Hounds running might work for the Red Coated Fox Hunters but it does not wash for GOOD Bobcat/Fox hunters in the Southeast. You come with good recommendations as a Person and Houndsman, however you should research some of your statements a little more…”Tennessee Lead” Was not a Fox Hound, he was a Deer Hound of mixed parentage…probably a dog we would now call a “Cur”. He was Black with Tan points but hardly a Black and Tan Hound. He did have a knack for running a Red Fox and was crossed on both Domestic Fox Hounds and Imported Irish and English Fox Hounds

The ability to TREE a Grey Fox, Bobcat, Coon and Bear in the Domestic Fox hound predates the influence of Tennessee Lead. Some one like Mr. Nance electing to select Hounds with this Trait for a specific Purpose in NO Way should cast the disparaging term CULL onto these Specifically Bred Hounds….and I darn sure have not!

Now Mr. Al, I will respectfully agree to disagree with you as to the “Bottom” to be found in the Tree Bred hounds as Group. David, who brought you all one of the Best Hounds you all have ever had up there points this out in his very Good Posts about the differences in Tree and Running Hounds.

However I do not base my opinions (and that is just what they are) on others views. In the last 7 years we have tried 4 TW Hounds to try a get a Treedog to get Dad’s treeing, all have made nice Bobcat hounds, 3 are earning their living Striking, running, catching and Treeing Bobcats today for others in Ecosystems not as severe as where we hunt. The fourth was the darn nice little Nance bred bitch that belongs to Big N Blue. Her lines are the finest in the Tree dog world, her nose is as good as any Hound we feed, her BRAINS as Good as any CLAY Hound ever, her Heart…the Biggest thing on her. She was as good a Young Hound as I have ever seen started, yet run her 2 hours and she was fine … participating and contributing even in tall company. Pull her out for the 2nd race in a night and she would try her Heart out…but be a participant at best…..you could not get her out of the Box for the third race and would have to rest her two nights before she could go again. Our Style here in the Southeast just is not what she is BRED to Do….we were taking her out of the Arena League and trying to run the Packers Sweep….it ain’t what she is BRED to Do!

Now once again let me state “TREEBRED” Hounds work and work darn well in certain areas….other areas not so much! The same can said of Running Hounds!


PS: Tim...be careful what you wish for...could be the Martians are coming to your neighborhood!

This just my personal observations with my dogs. All are running dog TW crosses excet one. He is registered lightfoot English. He is able to run with any dog i own and alot of others that i dont own, until you get into a race that goes for hour and a half or longer. He cant hang with them and still be able to contribute to the race. If you get on another cat the same day he is good for a half hour to 45 mins then starts to lag,not due to the lack of heart he just physicaly cant! You just as well leave home the next day. The running dog crosses do a pretty good job of locating and treeing, but the english dog is a super star at it. I cant believe some of locates that dog has pulled off. Just my own observations take em for what they are worth to ya. " Tall Timber" we hear that term alot on here, lets hear some of the definitions from around the country in feet or yards. Just curious

"Big" or "tall" timber to me means you better bring binoculars if you're gonna have a prayer at finding a cat in a 250ft tree where the first limbs start at 100ft.

I would like to throw a bit of input into the discusion pertaining to John and Al's debate. First I would say that having been to a few rough areas in N. Florida (not hunting) and appreciating the amount of water and heavy, thick, nasty brush it has and having hunted in Oregon, specifically from Powers to Bridge and points nearby, I would say that there is probably going to be some big eyes on the Clay's faces if given a proper tour of Al's country. Not only is it thick with impenetrable brush, there is serious elevational issues (some gullies with 1000ft drop per mile) and downed oldgrowth logs 6-8ft tall. There is also water...lots of it and real dangerous water due to the gradient (at certain times of the year)where a swimming dog is a dead dog who decides he wants to follow a cat across.
Secondly, I believe Al might be a little skewed in his belief or experience with the health traits of linebred dogs. Quality linebred lines are as healthy as any dogs on the planet. Poor health is due to poor breeding tactics. The problem that I think exists in that part of the world and much of the west with biggame dogs is that there has been a poor effort to properly linebreed dogs for the specific purposes outlined and maintain healthy blooded dogs. For whatever reason I have only heard of a couple successful attempts (Blankenships for one). Most end up in money making affairs that become their demise. Quantity vs quality. Breeding is a tradition, deeply seated in the Southeast and that is why most of the foundation stock in the west of all the hounds is not too far removed from there. The thing about getting top cat dog stock from the southeast to the west coast is that it takes a little bit different dog and most aren't willing to make the tweeking to make it work. The easiest thing to do is mix breeds and outcross cross cross. I'm probably way out of line saying this but that is what I believe in my limitied experience and observation.
Thirdly, I think, although they are not a commonplace, but because of the way the good hunters are out west, there have been dogs developed from the typical softer coonhound style to be very tough and able to hunt day after day in hard conditions and long races that may just surprise a true running dog man. Not just in heart and desire, but actual physical longevity. I think this might be due to the bear hunting dogmen who must have dogs with extreme bottom end and high recovery rate. 3, 4 ,5 hour jumped bear races are a common scenario for most good, honest bear hunters. Many of these dogs are transfered to cat or multipupose houndmen and are widespread, but going back to the breeding practices are not focused on enough and few men possess strong lines of them and many are not suited for bobcat.
Finally, I think as with all good breeding practitioners, there is the highest likelihood in my mind that there are guys that have made good genetically sound tree dogs out of fully blooded running dog stock. It is just a matter of direction and time. All our tree dogs come from non-treeing heritage after all. They just aren't seen out west or are very rare.
These are just my speculations, probably some debate to them and my apologies to those who strongly disagree.

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good morning! this sure seems to be heading for a train reck. i have always taken the view of that old saying ( i'm from missouri you'll have to sho-me) approach. when doing this no matter what decision you make or conclusion ya come up with. you will only be able to blame one person. thats the son of a gun that looks at you in the mirror every morning. now the caliber hound that i have owned in the past i have always been a little prideful of. but have been around people that have fox hunted with running dogs, and although i still think there are some tree dog hounds that are quite tough it is still apples and oranges. as for the bobcat most guys i have been around (north east) tend to run them and shoot most of them on the ground. although i'm still learning more about bobs all the time. i have almost come to the conclusion that the only time they are even remotely close to a fox race or coyote is when they are jumped (exception maybe greys). now what i do think they are most like is the snowshoe hare. (same kind of tricks). wich leads me to the only kind of running dog i have put my eye balls on. the beagle, when i was judging large pack on hare trials. the rules were to complete the hunt you had to have three hours running time. sounds pretty easy right well with anywhere from 20 to 100 dogs on the ground. sometimes you only got 2 to 5 minutes at a time actual running time each time they started a run. due to the kaos. long story short sometimes it would take 10 or 12 hours on the ground sometimes to acumulate the 3 actual judgeable running time hours. all the while the temps could go as high as 80 to 90 with humidity during your hunt. and these are just the little running dogs. now i know if i head out 6 in the morning and am still out at 5 in the evening when its hot with most tree dogs. i'm probably going to be by myself. as the dogs will more than likely be shaded up. i guess what i'm saying is if the little ones can do stuff like the above. i can't help but be a little curious about their big brothers. take care ! Willy


P.S. i wish Bud Denny would comment on this as he is right in the thick of things with the hare hounds.

You know Folks; my patience begins to wear thin with People who can not “Listen” when they read something!

This thread was not about “Who has the Best Bobcat Hound”. It was about what kind of Hound/Dog did Mr. John need for where he Hunts!

I have never said that Dad’s Hounds were “Take anywhere – Catch everything” Hounds. Or that Running Bred Hounds are what is needed to catch a Bobcat anywhere the Short Tail lives…..just the opposite is TRUE!

I have never said that Tree Bred Hounds are Bad….in fact in several places above I have said that in certain regions they are the “Desired Hound of Choice” for Bobcats!

Now Mr. Al in NO way am I putting you or Ole Skinner down as to your abilities to Catch the Baddest Toughest Bobcat in your area! I am told that you are looked up to in your circle of Hunters!

URE-Mr. Don again no, I did not mean to disrespect you and the type of Hounds that you Hunt….you produce Game in Bad conditions. I was pointing out that others may call Tree Bred Hounds culls but not me.

If someone from this part of the World was moving to the NW or Oregon, I would be the last person trying to give advice on the Hounds needed, other than to refer the Person moving to any of you good Hunters in the NW.

Cobalt and Mr. Al point out that there may be some Strains of Hounds with lots of Tree Blood in them who have more “Bottom” than we have seen. I bet that they are right; we just have never seen them down here!

Again I would send any one interested in an OBJECTIVE reviews of the Strong and Weak Points of these two Stains (Treebred - Running Bred) Hounds to the Search Engine and look up DAVID's post comparing and contrasting the two!

In my first Post to Mr. John, I pointed out that within certain parameters Tree Hounds might work for him. I have given him names of Good Hard hunters to GO and Hunt with, to see what is working in areas similar to his area.

If any of you all know of any TREE BRED Hound Hunters who are successful in the Southeast please tell him about them…..I sure would like to meet them as well!