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I like a real smart hound above most traits they have their weaknesses but for me its usually worth the strengths . They can get a bit lazy at times and try to out think a track to much and they can be much more difficult to discipline effectively . However with a good balance of trailing instinct it sure speeds those spotty and tangled tracks along . Anyway let me hear what priority you put on real smart hounds and how many dogs you run at a time I feel there's a bit of a correlation there as to whether a guy will feel its worth adding a super intelligent dog just for the brain power even if it maybe weak some where else . I've seen these dogs help a lot. I know we try to get everything in one dog but when that fails we may have to settle for everything being represented in a pack. Got to rattling trying to clear that up and just stirred the mud . What's your experience??

I would have to say every goood bobcat dog has to have intelligence (brains). I have not seen a rattle headed dog catch cats consistanly. jmo Andy

I agree brains is a must. There is a lot more needed to make it all happen. I feel that a lot of hound men can not deal with a smart hound very well. If you are loud, hard on a dog or over handling a smart dog they will quit on you sometimes. Dewey

I know canine intelligence is usually not attributed to scent hounds much because the hurry up and do it type dogs border collies, French Poodles and such usually get noticed quickly and therefore are labeled as the smart breeds. I guess it is all in what your are trying to get accomplished with a dog that sets the stage. If humans had the speed, endurance, scenting ability and that coupled along with human reasoning we would be a force nearly unstoppable but alas we are long on smarts and short on those other senses.

I have heard a lot more over my years about smart hounds when it came to bobcats than any other game. Other tree game can be just as challenging at times and under certain circumstances as bobs but as far as painting things with a broad brush I would have to say the weirdo bobcat takes the cake. Yes weirdo, cuz they do thing so different than most animals even other predators, and I guess that is what makes them so tough to catch at times.

I am no authority on picking smart dogs but if you hunt with a dog that seems to be able to catch bobs when others can't after a bit of time you will see some different traits about this dog as opposed to the masses. I make it a habit of trying to spend a little time with a dog like that in a non hunting situation and observe them . One of my first hunting partners years ago was a great bobcat man from the north country and he could walk in a pen of strange dogs and given a little time he could tell you who was the lead dog at the cat catching.

Hey Peg leg how you doing,

I haven't been on here in a while. Guess I was tired enough today after hunting, to just sit back and relax and look at the computer for a change. Thought it was interesting to see the post about intelligence in hounds. As far as I'm concerned I don't think there's any substitute for intelligence in a hound.

And this is probably the reason that I sort of enjoy talking to a lot of the Bobcat hunters. Although sometimes I don't agree with the amount of dogs that they turn loose. And the fact that they believe that running bobcats is the only critter that demands brains in a hound.

However I truly understand how they come to this conclusion. Because so many other houndsmen and women tend to accept mediocrity. And are able to get away with it because some of the critters that they chase are easier to finish tracks on. I believe lion hunters are the biggest offenders that lead some of the Bobcat hunters to believe other hounds are dumb. It seems to me that they are quite content tolerating trailing backwards, not having real locating ability, and standing on their head while running the track.

However, things are changing. Even some of the bigger names in the lion hunting world are starting to cross trail hounds such as beagles and dogs that go back back to other running hounds. And have become aware, that results are much more enjoyable than tall tales. Unfortunately the latter seems to be much more prevalent in Arizona. But like Dads Dog Boy said. Eventually everyone realizes that it is much more enjoyable watching hounds run a track, that does not resemble watching paint dry. And I believe, brains and extremely hard culling play a much bigger part than tall tales.

Take care, Willy

Every cat hunter out there wants brain power in the dogs they run. Hunter's search for the best breeders have to offer, put down their hard earned cash for a pup with the right stuff and wait for the magic to happen. When the time is right dog and master head to the woods with tri-tronics in hand. Owning a dog with so much potential must weigh heavily on the ego of a hunter, surly making training more difficult. Because letting the dog make a few mistakes is often out of the question.

Everytime the dog steps out of line. Like leaving the road or getting to far ahead, maybe the dog is out of sight for too long or is not responding fast enough for his trainer. The trainer responds by pushing the button. Sending a quick zapp the dogs way.

It wont be long. This well bred, very Intelligent, top notch cat bred dog with all the potential in the world. Will soon be broke.


From doing anything!


I thought a few of you might like a little bit of sarcasam this evening. A smart, timid hound can require a very light hand and some creative training at times. I hate to say, I have ruined my fare share. Thank you. John.

All of you have very good points. I would add the following.

The ability for the handler to recognize and improve the learning ability through positive reinforcement. Catching them doing something right, however small it is and rewarding them.
Intelligent in a dog is in direct relationship to the intelligent of the handler and his ability to pay attention to things most would miss and then improve on them. To me an intelligent hounds knows what to do without training, learns commands fast, works as at team with a pack and they must catch or tree the game your after with urgency.
Detailed records are very important and will show you how intelligent the hound really is, how fast they learn and what you need to do more or less of.

JTG

I do treasure a smart hound. That being said I also beleive that instinct is just as important. I want the instincts to trail and tree to be very strong and the instinct to get aholt of it also to be there. The brians to know when to get a hold is also important or the dog won't last long.
I also believe the handler has to at least match the dog in smarts and instinct to bring that dog to his or her best. The smarts to push the electricty botton is not enough.

Lots of really good points made above, food for thought. Thanks guys.
RS

OK now have you or someone you've known gone to far in breeding for intelligence? I know it happens plenty on breeding for instinct some dogs will trail for a week others can't pass a tree with out barking for thirty minutes then you have the gritty dogs that'll fight a rock if nothing else is available so anyone ever get dogs so smart it was a negative in itself?

A lot of good points. Two thing come to mind for me, one you can never have to much smarts in a dog, two you have to have a dog with the desire. It is the complete package with the right handler that makes the outstanding bobcat dogs. It does not come along often. I feel my biggest problem with training a dog is getting across what I want out of them. The great bobcat dogs that I have seen just seem to do it with out much help from anyone the good bobcat dogs take a little help from me. Dewey

Anyone that has any hounds that they think are over board on breeding in intelligent for bobcats I would have to believe need to reevaluate thier thoughts. lol Andy

dwalton wrote:A lot of good points. Two thing come to mind for me, one you can never have to much smarts in a dog, two you have to have a dog with the desire. It is the complete package with the right handler that makes the outstanding bobcat dogs. It does not come along often. I feel my biggest problem with training a dog is getting across what I want out of them. The great bobcat dogs that I have seen just seem to do it with out much help from anyone the good bobcat dogs take a little help from me. Dewey

Dewy,

I don't think you really left too much out of your post. Only thing that I would add, is there seems to be way too much emphasis on the qualities of just a Bobcat hound. Only thing I would add is I don't believe it makes any difference whether you choose to run snow gators. We all should expect the same quality in the hounds that we put down.

Peg leg, If a breeding program ever gets to the point that it is that much out of hand. Whoever it is is just making puppies, and is not doing enough culling. And by no means should be classified as a breeder.

Take care, Willy

"Boys, if we give these dogs much more help we aint gunna catch this cat"
Elmer Blankenship while in the middle of a ducking dodging road running cat race. That has stuck with me hard. I believe that we can get in a smart dogs way and make that dog look stupid trying to "HELP" them out. In the heat of the moment i believe we can confuse a dog if we arent careful. JMO

If you find someone who's raising hounds that are too intelligent, let me know. I'd like to try and buy their program.

So seems everyone's saying no? Well here's my thoughts it obvious the genetic traits can be picked a chosen when needed and have been the exception being intelligence as surely its genetic so why aren't more of us calling around hunting with dogs looking for that real smart dog to throw into our breeding? Well I think two things make it difficult real smart hounds do seem more sensitive then a stubborn trail or tree dog and don't shine as much when hunted by a new hunter or with mixed packs and last its difficult to measure hound IQ in a meaningful way so it can be compared. But maybe we should give intelligence more of a look when selecting sires or dams I think the genetic urge to hunt trail tree etc are all important and have seen dogs good in all departments that just lacked something and you might say its desire at first but no that obviously there its intelligence . But I've seen real smart dogs that are fatally weak in one area that should have been extraordinary hounds but because of it were not much of anything unless a pack mate covered it for them wildlife is constantly being culled for stupid can our hounds say the same for us or us for our hounds? We have a lot of ground to make up it seems what breeds tend to produce the most intelligent hounds in your estimation?