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Norwester writes:

"Seems like "brains" is the number one valued trait.
Someone explain it to me please.....what is "brains" ?

Almost comes off as a catch phrase used to explain what we can't explain when it comes to hound work."

I feel that this is a Question worthy of it's own Thread! I know what we think of as examples of a Hound's exhibiting BRAINS and will post these thoughts later in the Thread.

What would you describe as Brains in a Hound, how is this expressed, how early in age does this Brains thing start to show up in a Pup?

This is another Topic with NO right or wrong answer! Please give us your thoughts.

This will be an interesting thread!! LOL My definition of brains in a hound is easy handling, minds when you talk to him, knows his name and wants to please his master. Never have to put a leash on him.
In the context of a bobcat dog, it is his reasoning power to learn that a cat will squat and let him run over him and learn to realize to turn around. Also the ability to realize that when a cat hits the road they normally go up or down it, sometimes great distances. As the hounds runs his cat , if he has the reasoning power to learn these basic tricks he is using his brain to run his quarry and over time as he runs into more tricks, learns from experience.
I would like to add, ever notice that some dogs just seem to know where to look to find a track
and seem to be in the right place most of the time. That dog has learned from his experiences and that take thought.

I dont normally use the term a dog has 'brains'. However when asking what is the most important thing a hound must possess I do belive that we need to use a noun, like Nose, Grit, Stamina, etc. Not an adjective like a hound is gritty. I normally refer to hounds/pups as Smart, which is an adjective. Smart can be defined as 'having or showing quick intelligence or ready mental capability.'
I also use the term intelligent, which can be defined as '1. having good understanding or a high mental capacity; quick to comprehend, as persons or animals: an intelligent student.
2. displaying or characterized by quickness of understanding, sound thought, or good judgment: an intelligent reply. 3. having the faculty of reasoning and understanding; possessing intelligence.' However that is still a adjective. I think the last word of the 3rd definition is what we are talking about Intelligence.
Intelligence is a capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
No doubt this is one of the best traits in a hound. We all know that one dog that just seems to be smart, have the knack for knowing where to look, when to pick their head up and run, when to gear down and use their nose, when to go back and check under that bush to see the game has squated. These dogs always seem to be in the right place at the right time, the race would have ended in a loss if it wasnt for old such and such going back in there and finding the game. That dog is not just lucky every time, they have shown the ability to adapt even Learn from prior experiences, this dog displays 'high mental capacity' 'reasoning, aptitude in grasping truths' or 'quick intelligence' also simply put 'brains'
You can see it a young age, which pup learns to climb out of the house and back in first, dogs know when its feeding time, my dogs eat out the same bowl every night in the pen, pups moved into a pen w/ a grown dog quickly learn the pecking order, or they get roughed up a little time to time. It can be seen in dogs who learn to climb fences or open the gates. Brains is the dogs ability to remeber 1 thing in the past and apply it to future endeavors.

Guys talk about running dogs who tree. Yes we breed dogs that have shown the ability to tree, however its not something they normally do until they have been hunted a few seasons, caught enough game, and been around other dogs that tree game, then the intelligence takes over and 'ok this game isnt here, scents gone, let me look up, or down' It takes intelligence for a dog that not bred to tree hard instictivly to tree. on an off topic, probably to ruffle som feathers i feel running dogs that tree are much more accurate tree dogs, not as far as finding the tree first, but as in not false treeing, have yet to see a running dog false tree a fox or cat or coon for that matter, but have seen tons of tree dogs false tree game.
Perk

The ability to figure their way around obstacles, and know when they've blown past a track. We get dogs ledged up in all sorts of cliffy country. Some are smart enough to figure out a way around/up the obstacles, and others will bark at the log a bear ran up for hours.

Good luck with this one!!

Here's my shortest opinion. The ability of the dog to make the right decision in as many hunting situations as possible using all of it's senses and using the other factors around itself (i.e. the other dogs, terrain, conditions, people etc.). A truly smart dog will have a handle on all of that. Truely smart dogs are born that way but can never reach their full potetial without a truely smart owner.

They've been injecting the boarder collie into various breeds for the smarts (and other factors) for hundreds of years. In David's book he talks about the various types of dogs that have been developed for various types of game for hundreds of years and how a true "bred to type" bobcat dog has not been developed. I think that if a team of people with a pile of money got together and made the perfect bobcat dog, a boarder collie would almost certainly have to be in the mix.

There are some places here in the US that have been breeding dogs specifically for bobcat for quite but considering the differences between Southern pack hunting styles and Northern hunting styles the definition of a bobcat dog is very different depending on which style your used to.

I've always hunted in the North and I have a hard time calling a pack hunted dog a bobcat dog. There are a lot of people in that camp and I don't mean to offend anyone by making that statement. It more of a matter of perspective. I certainly don't catch over 100 cats a year here in WI. so the arguement could easily be made by the southern pack style hunters that I don't know what I'm talking about. The deffinition I've developed in my time and experience hunting bobcats has lead me to believe that a bobcat dog is one dog that can catch nearly every cat you put it on with no help from another dog and minimal invovement from it's owner. I've had several that were/are pretty good and one that was phenominal (Rachel, I bought her at 2 1/2 years old from David Peightal). I never did take the opportunity to take Rachel down South when she was alive and try her there so in a way (where it concerns hunting in the South) I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'll have to commend Dadsdogboy for bringing up this discusion as it's the first time I've ever seen the question presented. I have a feeling that this is going to be a matter of subjectivity...more than already expected!

I'll probably just keep it simple. We never taught our dogs to handle in the past. Just looked at them as machines. And if they didn't perform they didn't stay. Now hind sight is 20/20. And I believe we truly missed out on a lot of pleasure by doing things that way. As it is way more enjoyable to hunt those with a good handle.


But make no bones about it we definitely had dogs with brains. We just had a different definition of brains. See, I believe any hound can be taught to handle. But dam few have the brains I look for. Brains to us meant Game Smart, Game Savvy, Game Wise, call it what ya want. But it is the uncanny ability to learn where to look for the particular critter that they are given the opportunity to chase (trained). And to learn to navigate the obstacles that the critter uses to try and shake them from trying to catch them. Buy getting as good as the critter. And even using short cuts to make up time in the race. You will recognize it when you see it, as you will think it is luck when you first start to see it.


Take care, Willie

brains in a hound to me is that a hound quickly adjusts its hunting to fit the hunting situation in order to catch game no matter what other hounds are doing wrong. in a treehound an accurate layup dog shows high intelligence in my opinion .back tracking ,slick treeing ,standing on their head etc....are things that tell me that the hound is not the brightest .also dogs that back up these bad behaviors .gotta love those dogs that pull through under pressure and come up with the meat.

Another great thread. I guess them turkey hunters must be holding you guys prisoners. Luckily your prison cell is equiped with a computer.

perk wrote:You can see it a young age...It can be seen in dogs who learn to climb fences or open the gates. Brains is the dogs ability to remeber 1 thing in the past and apply it to future endeavors. Perk

That kind of sums it up for me, in fact there is not a thing I can add to what has been said, but only pick out my favorite parts. It is problem solving ability. It grows with every problem encountered and solved, and even grows with problems encountered and not solved on the first or fifth try. But He doesnt keep repeating the same thing that didnt work the first or second or third try. Or he might repeat it but all the while he is starting to feel "this is stupid this never works, what else can I do". And the sixth time, that same cat gets caught because the dog finally found a working solution to his problem. This was exactly what made Rachel so amazing, only you would see her work it out her first time on the cat. She would not repeat the same mistake twice.

As pointed out by Perk, the smartest dogs can be a pain in the butt because they wont be contained in the boxes (or pens) we are used to putting dogs in. A ton of the smartest dogs have been culled because they did not fit the handlers ideas of what a dog should do and be. I know a good hard cat hunter who just almost wont sell one of his pups to most folks because his pups are so mis understood. Yet they have made top dogs in the right hands.

Dan McDonough wrote:Truely smart dogs are born that way but can never reach their full potetial without a truely smart owner.

We know of a dog that was culled and passed on through several owners before it got into the hands of someone that could see the dogs amazing giftedness. The dog has remained at the head of the kennel and has produced many outstanding pups because he finally found a truely smart owner. No one could understand the dog until then. He would not fit in to their idea of what a dog should do and be. But he could out-hunt, out-produce every one of their dogs that did fit that box. They could not give him enough freedom or keep him long enough to ever find that out. We have often seen this type of dog culled. [I might add that Rachel was a dog that would have been culled by a lot of people. As a puppy she looked idiotic at times. Her power was way beyond her ability to handle it gracefully].


They are culled from the coyote pens every day. Dogs that solve an easy problem by cutting a circle in half are called cheaters and culled. You just culled the smartest dog in the pen. But he was a pain in the butt. He doesnt play by the rules. The only one smarter just knows his handler is an idiot but does what he wants him to because if he shows how smart he is he will be culled ha ha. This actually is a common phenomenon among herd dogs such as border collies. They loose respect for the handler because they are actually a lot smarter than him.

Dan McDonough wrote:Truely smart dogs are born that way but can never reach their full potetial without a truely smart owner.

Isn't it wierd how some people always choose the best puppy out of a litter? Kind of makes you go "Hmmmmm". And one day it dawns on you they dont have a secret puppy picking method because they could be blindfolded spun around ten times and tied up, and rolled in tar and feathered and could crawl up to the litter and blindly point with their toungue, and that dog would always become the best of the litter.

This is a person who pays attention to the development of that puppy's brain by forcing those impulses to fire down the nuro-pathways in that little brain and form those bridges to thought while they are in the formative weeks and months. There is only one chance for a child to form these nuro-pathways (while he is a child). There is only one chance for a puppy to form these nuro-pathways (while he is a puppy). If you think dogs can just catch up later, you will be buying your best young dogs from someone who disagrees with you.

perk wrote:You can see it a young age. Perk

I agree, you can see it at a young age. But you can develop it or stifle it at a young age. In my strong opinion, if you dont develop it at a young age, the dog will never be all it could have been. And the dog will lose capacity for intellegence in the same way a child kept in a closet will lose it if it is not stimulated and developed.

Great topic. Wonderful posts! Fun to read. Old Norwester came out of his closet again to stir things up Ha ha.

Great post guys: Brains why would you not want a smart dog ,be it track smart, cat smart or what ever you want to call it. It is what makes or breaks a bobcat dog. You will need heart, desire and ability but with out the brains you will not have that top dog for bobcat. As it has been stated a lot of good dogs with brains have been culled because they have not fit into what someone has thought it should be. People have mention a dog that lets himself out of the kennel. The Bozo dog of Tim P. has taken it one step father he will let himself out and the ones he wants to play with out of there kennel also. When you see smart one knows it. Dewey

And then you have the smart dogs that decide that only a fool would mess with a bear

A lot of the top bobcat dogs I have seen will not mess with a bear. I call that smart? Dewey

Ker_man wrote:And then you have the smart dogs that decide that only a fool would mess with a bear

Lol. Ker man, that is why this forum is called "bobcat hunting". Ha ha. You dont see me crashing the party over where it's called "bear hunting" lol. If you ever get a chance to talk to Tom Barnes ask him how many great bobcat dogs he has made from dogs that were culled by bear hunters!! That is the story of a couple great dogs he has right now. You are on to something, sir. It is very easy to tell the members whose foundation was bear hunting. I can spot them a mile away. They come from an entirely different perspective. Ray Mears was a brilliant breeder, many top cat dogs carried at least a little of his blood. But he bred combination dogs. He knew the difference and was very intentional about doing that. He tried to convince me to do the same, but I just wasn't practical enough to listen to him. You can catch a lot of cats with combination dogs. Yet we are still dreaming of bobcat dogs. It is a different animal.

Brains=50% breeding,45% conditioning(repetition) and 5% or less reasoning. Most dogs are not at there best catching a cat till they are around four years old. Not because they have learned but because they have been conditioned. Three guys can take the same basic bloodline and intelligence of dogs and get different results mostly because of there different styles of hunting. If I take mine and coon and cat hunt them which I do. My dogs become more tree happy than my cousins who only runs his on cat. Because my dogs have been conditioned that a coon goes up a tree quicker. They will start looking for a tree sooner. I think dogs get conditioned to do certain things. I agree some are smarter than others and some take less conditioning than others. But I don't think dogs reason the same way that we do.

LOL David, I did not mean to crash the cat hunter's party. I realize that it is a different type of dog and a whole other game. I have often thought when a hound makes it clear that it won't stick with a bxxr that it might just be too smart. I won't mention courage

LarryBeggs wrote: But I don't think dogs reason the same way that we do.

National Geographic did an article that featured a Border Collie. He had learned the names and could identify 300 items. He was taken to a house filled with some of those items. There was one item he had never seen nor heard of. He was told to go get several of the items he knew, which he did. Then he was told a noun he had never heard before and was told to go get this object, which he did. He did not even pause. He knew what it was because it was the only thing in the house he could not identify.

If that is not deductive reasoning, I am not sure what is.

Folks who study these things say these border collies have the intellegence and understand vocabulary on the level of an 8 year old child. I am not saying our hounds can function to this level of intellegence but they are canines, same as border collies. These are the possibilities available in the canine world. To say our dogs cant have a little of it will be a little hard to swollow.

C'mon Larry leave me alone in my fantasy world. lol