BigGameHoundsmen.com

Folks,

Several of you all have contacted me and SOUTH TEXAN about how we go about “Correcting” our Hounds. How we know what they are doing at night or any other time that they are out of site.

We have been blessed to have grown up with Mentors who seem to innately know these things and how to fix any problems a Hound goes through with his or her growing pains in becoming a CAT HOUND. Yet we know not everyone is or has been so blessed.

Therefor Mr. Robbie and hopefully a couple more will be telling how we identify a problem and the measures used to remedy that problem!

Now some of the people who contacted us, sadly are not members here on BGH, but Guest who visit regularly. Others contacted us privately with questions. I had Hound folks from three Continents contact me about “Seeing” with your EARS and fixing the “Overrunning” a track problem.

Both groups do not want to be subjected to the Incredulous Sarcasm that too often ruins a perfectly good thread. So this thread will be Heavily Moderated to insure this does not happen….anyone having a problem with this go to the CAGE and start a Thread about those A-hole running Hound Bobcat Duds and gripe to your hearts delight!

Ok, with that out of the way, let’s start with laying the BACKGROUND in Obedience, Respect and Reasoning in a Hound! Hopefully this started when the Pup was two weeks or so old and progressed in stages till around three months of age. Initially just getting the Pup used to Human interaction, learning its name, learning that “Come Here” will get it cuddling and comfort. Perhaps beginning obedience like teaching it to sit on command, or jump up on a bench or tailgate set on bricks to eat, all are things that will help in the “Thinking/ Learning” process that a hound has to GROW through. Most all of the Houndsmen in all regions have certain tricks that they are partial to in developing the Pups.

At the three month mark is when we like to introduce the Pup to the Training Collar. We will let them wear it while on a short “Walk About”. The Pup is dragging a 20 foot or so long small diameter rope that has been snapped into its collar. (you never want to let the Pup get away from your control). After the Pup quits scratching and worrying with the Collar, the rope is picked up and the Pup is called to us, if it does not respond it is pulled to us and then loved up.

The next day the Pup is prepared for a 2nd day with the rope attached and the Training Collar buckled. The Collar is tuned to its lowest strength and a very short signal(just a touch) is sent to the Training Collar to see if there is any reaction from the Pup. Just a motion of the Head is enough, you just want to see a reaction that it feels a signal. If nothing happened adjust the signal strength till you have the reaction. The Pup has heard the Tone and will be curious about its origin the next time it hears it.

Now go for that walk, after a bit call the Pup by name and firmly say COME HERE, while doing this pull the rope toward you and send a Long TONE to the Pup(we use a 3 count for this)……love it up when it gets to you. Now walk off again and repeat this sequence but now when the Pup pulls back send it a Training Signal at that weakest setting that you received a reaction on, followed by the 3 count TONE. Pull the Pup to you and again love it up. You are teaching it that not heeding a command will make it “Uncomfortable” (Not Hurt) and comfort can be found where you are.

Most will learn this quickly, two or three sessions and the Trainee should be coming on command with maybe a reminder of a Long Tone to heed the Command. If done properly the Trainee will not be scared of the Collar, Tone or the Trainer. Keep the sessions Short and Fun for the Trainee as their attention spans are short.

This same procedure will work with any age Hound who has not been back grounded properly. Some folks do not attempt this until the Pups are a lot older (5 to 7) months…..whatever works is fine…..we just like to start the Pups learning early and always want to have CONTROLL over them at all times!

Now on the Walks or trips to the Rabbit Pen the rope is not needed. The Trainee is connected to you by the Training Collar. When the Pup is corrected a Short Tone signal with a LOUD, Clear, and CONCISE verbal command is given. The Trainee must know what it is that you want it to do. With us it may be no more than to STOP and THINK. This command is a Loud “Haaaayyyy” with a Short (1 count) TONE. This familiarizes the Trainee with the fact that the Tone is for more than the COME HERE command. The Long 3 count Tone still means COME HERE and if not heeded, uncomfortable sensations will be felt.

Biddable (intelligent) Hounds will catch on quickly, others will take a little longer, but all can/will learn if given a chance. Now that you and the Hounds are equipped with these tools you are able to correct problems as they arise!

A Problem that was discussed was correcting a Hound who is overrunning a track causing a possibly unrecoverable loose.

What we would do, is be listening closely to the Race, Dad likes to say that we are the Conductors of the Orchestra(for those who doubt that you can “See with your Ears” ask any Band Leader or Conductor if they can pick out each of their musicians). It is up to us to determine where the Sour Notes are coming from.

By listening to who is leading a Race and noticing which Hound was “calling the Pack” when a Check occurs, then hearing if that Hound picks up the Game. If this happens several times and the “Calling Hound” is not finding the Game, another Hound is, and sometimes does it when “Caller” is still opening, then it is time for the ole Caller Hound to get a “Stop and Think” TONE. Further transgressions should yield harsher measures

With the advent of the Garmin Systems this is easier to do as you can watch what the Hounds are doing. Or you may be able to see the Hounds and identify the problem. BUT beware before you Correct Harshly, as some times your EYES may not be seeing the true story.

Hounds are Running Game by following its Scent signature. This Signature, due to many Environmental and Atmospheric Conditions may be some distance from the Actual Critter!

Now if a Varmint comes out of the cover and hits a road try to notice how close to where it emerged do the Hounds running it come out. At times The Critter will turn back into the Cover and the Hounds will APPEAR to overrun the Track. But if all the Hounds are giving Tongue, then chances are that the Scent Signature is “Off Track”. Therefor Corrections should always start with a “Stop and Think” command.

This should set the Stage for a Thread to help Folks to understand some of the things we do and why.

I look forward to reading How SOUTH TEXAN, Perk, CRA and others Correct Problems that occur during a Race!

Please ask us Questions and to clarify answers.

Nor-wester had a good question that I will get to tomorrow, have to go now as we are dodging Tornadoes tonight!

Do you mind if I post this link on a beagle board? It is very important to beaglers how their beagles run the line. I think they will be very interested in what you are about to propose.

Mr. Bud,

Certainly you may use anything I write to help others! Just know that I make NO claims into how SCENT may behave in Temperatures like you all deal with.

I would like to hear what Riverbottom has to say about Hound Behavior in these conditions as to Scenting.

As I sit here and try and type out my response to this topic and try to make it make any sense, its daylight outside but it’s totally dark and the road lights are still on. The sky is rumbling with thunder and lighting and we are now under a flash flood warning and right now it’s absolutely pouring down rain. Last night just before bed my entire family was hunkered down in our homes safe spot while 2 different tornado's tore through the area.

In my area a lot of trees were snapped about midway up the trunks and outside decorations were blown everywhere, a lot of roof damage but all in all we got off easy and safe compared to some. The tornado wasn't so kind for our neighboring states Oklahoma, Texas and some places in Arkansas that lost everything. They also said we are looking at another round today. Please keep everyone in your thoughts and prayers because a lot of young lives were lost in Oklahoma and Texas and thousands are without homes and lost everything.

Mr. Clay great post it’s going to be hard to add much to this.

((( My way of starting basic training from weaning age to about 4 months of age)))

I believe the foundation of a good bred pup starts with the amount of time the hunter is willing to devote to the pup. When searching for a pup always keep in mind that the strength of a tree begins in its roots. I hope you know what I mean by that.

Puppies need a lot of interaction with their handlers. If you spend a lot of time with them outside the kennel by the time they are ready for the woods they should not cow at much that comes their way.

My first priority with a pup is teaching them to tie out. I teach my dogs to tie out on a chain, but house them in a kennel. I individually chain all my dogs separate while feeding them. This is for several reasons, 1. I know exactly how much they are getting to eat. 2. Some dogs eat slower and miss out on food if being group fed. 3. It allows me to go to each dog and give them a good petting and once over for any issue that may come up while out hunting or in the kennel. I always like to feed my pups on top of their dog house on an elevated platform. This will help later when rigging comes into play. The pup will ride the rig a lot more comfortable by already being used to being up off the ground. Teaching a pup to tie out will also make them accept a leash a lot faster once you start to lead them around.

Now a word of caution that I have noticed throughout the years of raising pups and when you first tie them out to chain. Once a pup realizes they are tied up and can’t get away its very important that your collar is nice and snug on their neck so they don’t slip it off. But the most important thing to do, (((This is very important))) always and I mean always keep the grown dogs away from the pup in a separate area. Once that pup starts resisting it will go to thrashing around and whining, if you are not right there when that happens and the grown dogs are there, regardless if they fight other dogs or not, they will jump on that puppy everytime. Something about a whining thrashing around pup just triggers something in grown dogs to attack that pup. I don’t know why that is, but it happens everytime even with the most gentle of dogs. I stay right with the pup and down at their level. Once the pup starts to resist being tied I gently start to pet them and calm them down by talking to them softly. After about five minutes of that I feed the pup while being tied out. They will normally eat but with caution, but my presence makes this new experience a lot calmer. Do this for a few days and they will tie out without any resistance.

Always keep in mind that when dealing with pups start small and do all training in small doses. Puppies have the attention span of a small child. When I work with pups loose I like to have them in a smaller controlled area and expand as they get under more control. In the beginning just do the basics, always call them by name, teach them to tie out, try and handle them on an elevated platform (never leave them alone during that time) pups bones can easily break when jumping down from an elevate position. Human interaction is very important. If you have kids and they want to play with the pups its great for both, pups and kids. Just make sure the kids don’t try and carry them around too much and get to dropping them.

One thing your family needs to understand with owning and raising hunting dogs is that they all don’t make the cut so they don’t get too emotionally attached from the beginning. Making the cut doesn't always mean culling them. I don’t want to sound cocky but after you have owned and hunted with an elite pack of dogs, it raises your measuring stick, and it’s hard to settle for nothing but elite performances. I would rather have 1 good dog than 5 mediocre dogs. Just remember if you decide to let a dog go for whatever reason it’s normally because it has a fault you can’t stand or its performance is lacking somewhere. I caution you not to give that dog to anyone that you hunt with. You decided to cut it from the team so you won’t have to deal with it anymore. If the pup’s problem concerns you enough that you believe it should be removed from anyone’s pack than do the right thing and cull it, don’t pass it to someone else to deal with.

Always take good care of your dogs and pups. Anyways provide them with plenty of food, clean fresh water, good weather tight housing with plenty of bedding, and keep up on their shots, worming, flea and tick prevention. Always provide plenty of shade in the summer and shelter from bad weather in the winter. A happy healthy puppy and dog will always perform a lot better when properly cared for.

After raising a lot of puppies during this time you should already have a good idea if they are going to make it in your kennel. Not always but signs should start to show if you believe you are going to like them of not. Words of advice; if you don’t like a pup for whatever reason, get rid of it because you will never give it a fair chance to develop.

I will add to this later as time is available. I know it’s a little off topic but I will get to my point sooner or later but I'm just laying down the foundation that I use with my pups and it's worked for me.

I have several questions and a couple of comments/observations. First off it is quite clear that fellows like Dad's Dogboy and South Texan are intimately familiar with the family of dogs they are using and have been for a long, long time. This has to be a huge, and cannot be understated, advantage when "seeing with ones ears" .

However one has to take into account that alot of fellows are not in this position. So if you don't know the family of dogs and their traits and characteristics going back to forever......how is it you can accurately sort out trouble spots when you rarely get to see with your eyes & you arent sure how to interpret what you see with you ears??

Having run a pack of hounds on hare for a number of years now, I can say that I can certainly formulate an educated guess as to what is going on a lot of the time by what I hear & KNOWING the hounds I have down.
However I, like Bud and RiverBottom are in the unique positon that we will see the game with the hounds in pursuit on the line....multiple times in a single hunt, EVERY HUNT.
Even so.....this is still a very short glimpse into what is actually going on in there when one takes into account how long the dogs run and how long you get to see the action.
It seems to me that to make decisions and calls without having a similar advantage would be an astronomically incredible task.

As to the corrections...... I can certainly understand how the e-collar is an amazing way to blaze the path to altering behavior to some degree. However, givin the percentage of intances a trouble spot will be indentified & recognized compared to how many times it is gotten away with...... do you really think such a correction will be effective?
In my opinion you would be depending on ability of the rest of the pack to bandaid the trouble spots way more than the e-collar correction.
The other issue I have regarding altering trouble behavior is that even if it is effective.......this goes no where to really eliminating the problem. It merely conceals it for a time.
It's been my experience that a "rough" hound that has been corrected will constantly need this correction and with out the monitoring will revert back to it's previous behavior and worse yet if said hound is bred based on some other redeeming traits, it is still going to make "rough" puppies that will grow up to require similar correcting.

Wouldn't it be simpler to remove the trouble spots althogether and keep a hound that does it right to begin with?

Norwester thanks for that intelligent post. Those are my thoughts, however I could have never stated them so polite & respectful. No disrespect to you C J ohn, but if there are houndsmen who can detect all those mistakes and correct them at 1/4 to 1/2 miles away in the terrain here in my hunting area. I don/t believe it could be taught by a mentor, it is truly a gift from God. I realize you are not writing for me, I just feel compelled to offer my opinion. Thanks Al

I would like to say one thing. C.J. and others already know my feelings as to the fact that there are some faults in a hound I have no desire to correct nor will I even if there is a miracle cure.

And I guess for me it's about owning and at one time trying to breed better hounds. And if everyone had the same set of principals. And the same expectations as to what they expect from a hound. ( which by the way. there should be a common denominator as to breed standard.) We would be able to carefully place pups from the same litter in the hands of a bobcat, coon, bear, lion, or anything a person chooses to hunt. And enjoy the success stories from each one. Unless there is a cull involved. And yes everyone gets them. And please remember, this is where BRAINS comes in. As we are the trainer that dictates what they are allowed to trail. They have to do what is necessary to trail as fast as their nose will allow them to go. And this will vary according to the choice of critter. With the intent to catch, tree, or bay till we get to them. This is they extent of my training, with the exception of putting a good handle on them.

I guess there might be one other element of training. And really it is not training. It is deciding who continues to get to eat my dog food. And although I like to see as much as I possibly can with my eyes. There are a handful of us on this site that also see as good with their ears. And to the nay sayers, I say this. If you think it is some kind of snake oil that we have drank that has no merit. I say to you. It would be a big mistake for you to invite one of us to hunt with you. Having never met you or seeing your hounds. And after two runs allow us to take home the one we would like, if there was one. Because trust me you would be with out your best dog. ( If you are so sure we are just full of hot air. Are there any willing to take that chance? )


Take care, Willie

NorWester, you bring good questions to this discussion. Let me try to go through them in an orderly fashion and try to be as “Respectful” as you were!

It seems that the concept of “Seeing with your Ears” is what is discombulating folks so much.

Your premise that we are able to do this is because we have raised these Hounds for generations, really holds NO merit from what I/we have seen. Just this past weekend a Houndsman was here and heard our Hounds for the first time. I am speaking of CRA. He only had to be told a Hounds mouth one time and he had it down pat. During the Race he would ask if a Certain Hound was doing a Certain thing and was correct almost every time! How much of the Race did he see…well only a couple of crossings.

Now Dad has been hunting with different Packs over the years. After the Race when Critiquing it with the pack owner, that owner would be amazed that Dad could tell which Hound was doing what when this was the 1st time he had heard/seen these Hounds at work!

Let’s go back to the Orchestra analogy….a Conductor/Arranger can go to a new Orchestra/Band and can “Hear” every instrument at play and tell if they are off key or tempo. Now just like Mr. Robbie said you may not be sure and have to hear this again to be sure before you move the 1st Chair Clarinet to 4th chair and prescribe some remedial work.

Now let’s move on to the “Rough” Hound scenario. We do have somewhat of an advantage in that Dad has raised these Hounds long enough that we have a pretty good Idea of how they will respond to Corrections….generally they will not need much to put their Minds back in Gear! But that is not to say that the same principles and practices will work elsewhere and on other Hounds.

When we were helping Glen Rybard get started with his Pack, Dad did not have Hounds to give right away, so we found him some Hounds from back East. There were two groups one from GA, one from SC. Each group would run a Bobcat but had individuals with Faults. There were/are fewer Good Bobcat Hounds than COLD Weather Beagles so replacing/culling these was not an immediate option.

Fortunately Glen is one of those Rare Individuals with the Houndsman Gene. With a little guidance from Dad and Tri-tronics he broke some of these Hounds from bad habits such as Backtracking, Hanging up, Overrunning, and giving excessive Mouth Off Track. And he did this mostly Hunting at night and as far away as ½ mile from the Hounds. He had to make decisions on SOUND alone…..he studied the Hounds and learned from his mistakes as well as teaching the Hounds. The amount of time and work he put in paid very big dividends. After a year or so he became able to catch a Cat with Hounds that just months before would just follow a Cat from one unearned lose to another.

Now 10 years later Glen would not feed any Hounds of that Caliber, but that was what he had to use to get started. Most people would have given up on fixing these Hounds problems…..but them MOST people are not as Driven/Serious as we, Glen, CRA, and Mr. Robbie!

I will answer some other concerns later, just lost Electricity and time to Hunker down!

I'll try and respond directly and plainly......so please don't take what I type as antagonistic as it is not meant that way.

You write that

Your premise that we are able to do this is because we have raised these Hounds for generations, really holds NO merit from what I/we have seen.

....and yet further on you write...

We do have somewhat of an advantage in that Dad has raised these Hounds long enough that we have a pretty good Idea of how they will respond to Corrections

You are contradicting yourself here and to state that experience and knowledge of the hounds one has run is not a major contributing factor to understanding what is going on when the action is out of sight seems ludicrous to me regardless whether you are referring to corrections or the hounds behavior.
No question you and your fathers experience is a monsterous ace in the hole and that experience also encompasses knowing your line as well as the basics in running behavior.
Part of this is having confidence in your pack and judging/comparing behavior of it's members during a run.
This allows you to make maximum efficiency of any corrective attempts. Much like how, in my opinion curbing say, trash running, it's easier when done as a pack. My experience is that youngsters are less like to trash if the pack is not inclined to do so. Young hounds like young people want to emulate those adults setting the examples thus if all other needs are being met it is not difficult to curb "some" unwanted behavior.
It would however be a good deal more difficult if you DID NOT have intimate knowledge of the hounds involved coupled with experience and were not relying on the influence of the rest of the pack.

Your example of how Mr Rybard used corrections to get by until he had raised the standard of the dogs he will keep is interesting and one must do what they must do to get by.
Now 10 years later...he won't keep those kind.

I agree here as long as everyone acknowledges that there is a price to be paid for making such concessions when it comes to breeding.
Personally I want to be a position where I don't have to make corrections for a hound over running the end pouring out mouth like he is looking at the game. And I'm taking measures to ensure that as I go.

There were/are fewer Good Bobcat Hounds than COLD Weather Beagles so replacing/culling these was not an immediate option.

I'm gonna comment on this statement although I really am reluctant to because it smacks of an underlying tone & detracts from a discussion that I am enjoying.

Just how do you know this? Do you have experience running snowshoe hare in COLD weather? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing probably not.
Now I'm not saying it is not the way you say..... I don't know first hand as I dont hunt cats and have no experience doing what you do. But I'm not the one that made the statement either nor would I unless I had first hand knowledge to speak of from both perspectives.
When someone makes statements like this it draws into question motives which invariably opens a whole other can of worms.
Seems like there is enough questions already in this thread....so why?

NorWester,

1st let me apologize for making a “Sweeping” Statement.

Years ago I cautioned David Peightal about these…..you know David and he has spoken privately to me about you and his respect for you as a Dog Person.

However I will stand by the Statement “There were/are fewer Good Bobcat Hounds than COLD Weather Beagles so replacing/culling these was not an immediate option.”

Why. Because I know quite a few Houndsmen who have Beagles being run after Hare in the Northern US from MN up into Maine. There are many more who I do not know and more with you all in the Land of the Mounties. It is purely a matter of numbers there are More Beaglers than there are Bobcat Hunters. They may not have Small Hounds that meet your Standard, but they handle their Game well enough to suit their owners. There are/were no hidden motives in my Statement!

NorWester writes: “You are contradicting yourself here and to state that experience and knowledge of the hounds one has run is not a major contributing factor to understanding what is going on when the action is out of sight seems ludicrous to me regardless whether you are referring to corrections or the hounds behavior.”

I tried to illustrate that a perfect Stranger who has never heard or seen these Hounds before, but a man who has the SKILLS could in a short period of time tell exactly what not only the Pack but individual Hounds were doing within a Race. This was speaking to the fact of “Seeing” with a person’s Ears. To me there is no contradiction as there are two separate issues, Correcting Hounds and how the Hound handles that correction; and Listening to what each Hound is doing within a Race! Our having raised a Hound may have some impact on the former, but very little on the latter.

NorWester writes: “I agree here as long as everyone acknowledges that there is a price to be paid for making such concessions when it comes to breeding.”

I agree, and tried to discuss that Hounds we raise are easier to CORRECT due to their temperament and manner and style in which they are raised and hunted. Yet the Example of Glen should show that the same techniques can be used with any Hound in the Hands of a Handler equipped with the right skills to make USABLE Hounds out of those Hounds with Faults. Glen was just trying to get a usable Pack till he could get some BRED the way he wanted. None of the SC or GA Hounds was ever used in a breeding program. To use your expression they were a Band Aid to heal a hole till that hole could be filled properly.

I will give you that some Hounds NEED to be culled for any number of reasons. But do to any number of reasons a Hunter/Houndsman may have to try and get the MOST out of a Hound with a Problem.....not a PROBLEM Hound.....Willie has the answer for that Hound!

you know David and he has spoken privately to me about you and his respect for you as a Dog Person.

Oh great I'm not sure how I should be taking that, ha,ha,ha...

Because I know quite a few Houndsmen who have Beagles being run after Hare in the Northern US from MN up into Maine. There are many more who I do not know and more with you all in the Land of the Mounties. It is purely a matter of numbers there are More Beaglers than there are Bobcat Hunters. They may not have Small Hounds that meet your Standard, but they handle their Game well enough to suit their owners.

Yeah well...... I suppose I can see your logic here, BUT..... Awwwwww hell, I won't get into it as there just isnt any point and is way off topic anyway.
So fair enough, I'll wave the white flag on that one.

As to the rest I guess I really don't have an argument anymore. If it is a skill one needs to be born with like your father apparently has as well as a few of your friends.....then the rest of us no talent bums are screwed.
I need to see it with my own eyes and I cannot imagine a time when I'll be some comfortable as to call the game from 1/2 mile away and really believe it is the way I think 100% of the time.

Just one more parting question though before I surrender completely.....if using your method of corrections is only a way of correcting faults in hounds to make them usuable and NOT for breeding....... how come you & your father still use these methods on your hounds?

CJ called me yesterday and wanted me to reply to this topic. I read his topic early this morning before I left to go get on the tractor to shred brush. The more I thought about his topic, while shredding, the more I realized how broad an area this covers in the hound world "correcting hounds". Everybody has their way of doing it. There's no right or wrong. But I'm going to touch on a few things that I do, and a few things that I think. This post is intended for beginners as I know veteran hunters already know all this.

First off, I have to say that never before in history has the houndman been more equipped with the "tools of the trade" than we are today. With the shock collars and GPS tracking collars on dogs, it is so much easier to do the monitoring of the dogs within the pack and then correct if necessary. Before shock collars the old houndsman had to try and run his dog down or try to catch it crossing a road or catch it when he doubled back with the critter, to try and get a trash race stopped and then whip his rear end with a double rope or chain or club or whatever was handy. A lot of times the dog had already quit the critter and was coming in but after the hunter had been running for two or three hours trying to get it stopped, he sure had his dander up and was plenty mad and Ol'Blue got a good whippin anyhow. I would imagine Ol'Blue had the faintest idea as of why he was getting whipped but get it he did. Today, all we have to do is press the button. But the biggest question today is "When do I press it?" This tool can be used for lots of different applications, not just trash races. It is a real correcting tool if used correctly. To me, one of the most important things is our timing with the correction, for the dog to be able to know what he's getting corrected for. If our timing is off, the dog doesn't have a clue what that shock was for.

The other day on this forum there was a topic brought up that led to "seeing with our ears". In other words, reading what each dog of the pack was doing while trailing or running. Some, I think had a hard time grasping this. I compared it to listening to a baseball game on the radio. As you hear them calling the game play by play you are visualizing what is going on during the game. Totally different from listening to your favorite music station on the radio. Definition of visualize is "To form a mental image". That's what we're doing, forming a mental image of the dogs during the race. Is it 100% accurate? Heck No! But when,"I'll guess", 98% of the time our dogs are out of our eye site, what else or we going to do? Let our dogs get away with mistakes 98% of the time? Then....this brings up the other "tool of the trade". The garmin tracking collars. It sure makes "seeing with your ears" a whole lot easier! Now we have the screen, just like watching our dogs on TV. All we have to do is put each voice of our dogs to the little dog emblem on the screen, now we know where everyone is at during the race. If a lose (check) is made and Ol'Blue starts opening down the back track and about that time the other dogs make the pick-up ahead and all putting in. We know Ol'Blue is wrong, so I would give him a tone or shock. If Blue is a young dog, I would first just tone him and try to get him to shut-up and get back to the other dogs. If that didn't work I would start on intensity 1 and work up till he got the message. We are seeing him on the screen, so we know when he turns around and starts to the other dogs. On the other hand, if Blue is an older dog that sure knows better and been corrected for this before, the level of shock would be higher. Maybe 3 or 4, might even get a yelp out of him, because he KNOWS why "he" is getting shocked.

I have been accused of "All you do is watch your Astro", you don't even pay attention to the race! Do you watch TV with your eyes closed? No! If I have the picture, I can put the voices of my dogs to the dog emblem of the Astro, so it's not that I'm not paying attention to what I hear but also putting it all together on the screen! Sure gives a better mental picture as to what each dog is doing during the race and better for "corrections" if needed! Now...the other day a guy had a new Alpha unit while hunting. He was tracking his dogs on the compass page. That was all he used! Didn't know how to track and watch his dogs on the map page. If we are going to buy these tools we need to learn to use them to their fullest measure. I have my map page set up with the dogs name above the little dog emblem with the distance shown and zoomed in enough during a race or trailing so the dogs are spread out. So I can tell what each dog is doing. Also have the birdseye. Lots of times I can predict when the dogs are getting ready to make a lose (check). I'll tell Henry (hunting partner) "They're getting ready to make a lose" He'll say, "How do you know?" Because they're getting ready to cross a road. I'll bet 7 out of 10 times I'm right. Now sometimes these are just momentary loses at the road till they get it across, other times it's a full blown lose. But...able to do this because of the Birdseye, seeing where all the roads lay. Handy tool!

I start my pups about like CJ described in the first post. Only thing I do different, is I am blessed, that I live out on the ranch. So when my pups are about 2 months old, they are turned out of the pen and raised on the outside here around the house till about 6 months old, when I start hunting them. I don't really do much with them at this time besides calling and petting them when they come to me. It is amazing how much a pup will learn on his own just browsing around the house. Then when my wife goes on her daily walk (most times) all the outside dogs go with her. I think the other day I counted 10 dogs with her. But she has her little rat terriers with her too and they'll run at every cotton tailed rabbit they see. It sure doesn't take long for the hound pups to catch on fast to this. Before long they have their heads down smelling and trailing. When one gets close to a rabbit they'll give tongue and these pups figure out to go to a barking dog pretty fast. So really I take the easy way out during this stage of a pup's life.

Then when I start hunting them they are turned out and road hunted with the old dogs. Do they run at rabbits? Yes. Do I shock them? No, not yet. I'll let them run at them for a while, then when they start staying back and not coming on, messing with the rabbit trail, this is when I start the tone button. Up to this point they have never been toned. Just shocked lightly to make them come to me at the end of a rope as CJ described at first. Now when they first hear the tone, they don't have a clue what it is. But when I start breaking them off rabbits, I'll tone them then bump'em on 1 or 2 of the shock collar. Just enough to make them quit and come on with me. It doesn't take long for them to figure out when they hear the tone they are going to get bumped if they don't come on. Now these corrections are done at low level! Just enough to make them quit what they're doing and go on with the older dogs. I'm getting them ready to take corrections from me during a cat race without getting scared and coming out to me. Someone said on here the other day that their dogs were programed to quit and come to him when shocked. Mine or programed a little different. I want them to be able to take corrections from me while trailing or running without coming to me. Otherwise you never could correct a dog for anything with the e-collar while trailing or running. If I want them to come to me, I'll call them. And they'll come or I can make them come. But keep in mind all these corrections are done as low keyed as possible. As stated on here before all dogs have a different shock level response. As I'm training a dog to come to me when called on the end of a rope, I'm getting a feel for the shock level for this certain dog and make a mental note of it. I don't want to scare a dog to death when I shock him and make him quit! Don't ever correct when mad. Hold that temper! It's easy to do, I know, I've done it too but all your doing is setting your dog back.

This is the foundation my dogs are trained on. Then during a cat race if I have a dog that needs to be corrected be it back-tracking, false treeing, overrunning, babbling, or what ever it is, I can correct without that dog quitting and coming out to me. Am I 100% right. Heck No! Nobody is I don't think! Even when I have wrongly shocked a dog, the dog was right and I was wrong, I have had them stay with it and prove me wrong because my corrections were minor enough that they said " No Boss not this time! I've got it and they're wrong!" And he would be right. So...don't be scared to push the button. Just do it in a trainable manor! We all make mistakes, but if that old dog has any drive to him he'll stay in there, as Mr Dewey said they are forgiving. Thank goodness!
Robbie

NorWester you should know that David Peightal is the finest kind of friend to have, he has nothing but Good to say about you or anyone else...he is just that kind of guy!

NorWester writes: "Just one more parting question though before I surrender completely.....if using your method of corrections is only a way of correcting faults in hounds to make them usuable and NOT for breeding....... how come you & your father still use these methods on your hounds?"

What I attempted to show was what kind of things can be Corrected with this way of doing things, in even the toughest circumstance.

It does not matter whether the Hound needing Correction is a young Clay Hound just learning its craft; or any other Hound either young or old who has a fault which is/could hurt a Race.

I am obviously not very good at articulating my thoughts and findings on this matter. But the FACT is that Houndsmen and Women, for longer than either Norwester's Country or Mine have been in existence have been LISTENING to Music made by Hounds. Some just enjoyed the Sound made by the Hounds, others listened to each note and which Musician/Hound made each.

NorWester goes on to write: "I need to see it with my own eyes and I cannot imagine a time when I'll be some comfortable as to call the game from 1/2 mile away and really believe it is the way I think 100% of the time."

Without sounding defensive, cause I am not, WHERE did I write we are 100% correct every time with what we perceive the Hound/Hounds are doing. I can find no where, just as Mr. Robbie no where said the same in his Post on the other thread. In fact in every example given I have stated that the Conductor/Houndsman will/must listen closely a time or two to decide if and how much Correction is needed!

NorWester writes: ""As to the rest I guess I really don't have an argument anymore. If it is a skill one needs to be born with like your father apparently has as well as a few of your friends.....then the rest of us no talent bums are screwed."

I would think that part if this is said tongue in check.....but if not keep in mind that there are not Arthur Fiedlers and John Williams on every street corner either!

Robbie, never met you , but have respect for you. I stated my hounds will quit & come out when corrected & I have a young one now that will, because I have programed her to come when toned here at the place. My dogs are also let loose to exercise every day, live in country but have a logging road near, so must keep track of there location. I have used e-collars to correct dogs at times when trailing, always very careful to make as few mistakes as possible. I can recognize each hounds voice, when I can hear them plain. Here a hound can drop of a ridge be 50 to 100 yards in and all one gets at times is a bunch of echoes. As for the garmin, glad you & C John can have that kind of confidence in then. My health issue make reading the garmin difficult, however I have improved and use the garmin. I would never trust a garmin well enough to correct a hound I cannot see. I just see too many times when the garmin and the true location of the hound is much different. However, would not go back to the beepers. Robbie I also try to visualize what is taking place by reading the hounds voices & believe most time have a decent idea. I still believe if any one can be as certain as some believe they are when one cannot see the hounds, it is a gift from God & cannot be taught by a mentor. Sure wish I had your cat population & road system. Take care Al

al baldwin wrote:Robbie, never met you , but have respect for you. I stated my hounds will quit & come out when corrected & I have a young one now that will, because I have programed her to come when toned here at the place. My dogs are also let loose to exercise every day, live in country but have a logging road near, so must keep track of there location. I have used e-collars to correct dogs at times when trailing, always very careful to make as few mistakes as possible. I can recognize each hounds voice, when I can hear them plain. Here a hound can drop of a ridge be 50 to 100 yards in and all one gets at times is a bunch of echoes. As for the garmin, glad you & C John can have that kind of confidence in then. My health issue make reading the garmin difficult, however I have improved and use the garmin. I would never trust a garmin well enough to correct a hound I cannot see. I just see too many times when the garmin and the true location of the hound is much different. However, would not go back to the beepers. Robbie I also try to visualize what is taking place by reading the hounds voices & believe most time have a decent idea. I still believe if any one can be as certain as some believe they are when one cannot see the hounds, it is a gift from God & cannot be taught by a mentor. Sure wish I had your cat population & road system. Take care Al

Mr. Al,
I also have lots of respect for you too! You never want to offend anyone on here and I admire that in you. Would love to met you someday!

I can sure understand dogs dropping off in a canyon and just getting echos. Be very hard to read what was going on and make corrections under these circumstances. Here we are pretty much flat landed with a few rolling hills but the Garmin is real accurate here showing the true location of the dog. Did have one Astro that went bad that didn't show true location, but... it was malfunctioning and was replaced. I now have the new garmin Alpha unit that has the 2.5 second update rate. It's nearly like you are seeing the dogs run on the screen, so if your within hearing it sure makes it easier trying to read what is going on during the race. I am blessed to have the road system here to be able to stay within hearing 98% of the time on the places I hunt. I too, sure wish you had my road system.

I also believe it is a gift. Nothing disrespectful, but I have hunted with a few that has had dogs and hunted all their lives and couldn't read what was happening. I can read a little but have sure hunted with others a whole lot more gifted than me. But no one is 100% accurate just by "seeing what their hearing". I really guess my whole point on this post, is to try and help beginners correct in a manner that when we are wrong correcting that we don't hinder the dog in any way. It's a fine line to walk! You take care too. Sure hope your health issues keeps improving!
God bless you,
Robbie