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I realize it can vary from dog to dog, but on average, at what age would say a dog has gone from being a high producing dog to more of a "pup trainer" ??

8 years old

I want to only train my pups with dogs in their prime. Why would I want to short the pups with a old dog holding them back. Dewey

So Dewey, at what age do you typically feel your dogs have passed their prime?

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CasB

This question has the answer right in it......"being a high producing dog to more of a pup trainer".....Why would you want to use a pup trainer with a young dog at the point of decline?

Your question has no one set answer....I was a huge plott fan many years ago like you...I switched because many are larger dogs and seem to trend out around 8-9 years. (Depending on what strain you have?) while many of the smaller more athletic hounds tend to thrive a few years longer. Think about how hard a life most hounds live if you hunt hard? ....If you detect a decline at 8 years in a dog, I would not use the dog as a pup trainer....

I would start the young dog alone if I didn't have a solid dog to run with. Over the years I have witnessed an old dog tend to do stuff you never seen in the dogs prime, for this reason, I just make it a sound practice to work a young dog like Dewey mentioned, only with a dog in its prime or like all my dogs in my kennel, started from scratch with nothing but your handling. I don't like or recommend drags either!

dwalton wrote:I want to only train my pups with dogs in their prime. Why would I want to short the pups with a old dog holding them back. Dewey

I totally agree with this statement. I was that way with coonhounds for sure but once I started running coyotes I became even more adamant that all dogs running were in their prime or pups. I will hunt 2 old dogs together but never and old dog and a pup. That's not the way I like to do things at all. I want pups struggling and busting their ass to try and stay in the game or I will just run them by themselves. Hell I wont even hunt and old dog with a dog in its prime cuz the get jealous and act like arseholes.

But to answer your original question bout after their 6th season here running coyotes. They have a pretty good year their 3rd year. Their 4th and 5th year they are rockstars. Their 6th season they still catch coyotes usually but they do it from experience not pure athleticism. After that year they will no longer be allowed to run with dogs in their prime nor with pups especially. They just aren't good enough anymore. Two good dogs though will still catch coyotes for me but not like they used to.

It really depends on the dog. On a large dog with poor conformation { Pepper 72 lb female] At 6 or 7 they are going down hill they can still be used until 9 or 10 but I do not like to run a young dog over 12 months with them it will hold the pup back. The smaller running dogs[Rose] They can be good until 10 or 12 but will usually be slowing down and getting sticky on the cold track at 8 and up. I use both on real cold tracks but keep the young dogs out with older age dogs. One has to be looking at the combination of which dogs you put together on a cold track. Some dogs working together can make a good track go bad or they can speed up a cold track. Treeing a lot of bobcats is mainly done on your cold trailing not the jump. If your dogs can take a cold track and move it fast they will not have a problem on the jump. Dewey

If I have a good solid old dog that just can't keep up with the pack anymore i start my 4 to 5 month old pups with it. When the pups start out running the old dog and making some pick ups after they make a lose without the old dog having to do it I will try to run the pup by it self a few times or with other pups if I'm starting more than one. Then i put them in the pack whether it's a cat race with just my hounds or a fox race with 20 to 25 hounds. I don't let the pup run over a couple of hours with a big pack, I want to catch it up while it's still wanting more or it injures itself. If I have 1 to several pups about the same age running without any older dogs I will let them run all night. Unless a bobcat decides to go to another zip code a hound here can usually keep up and contribute to the race till around 8 years old. Fox races here stretchs most hounds over 6 years old pretty hard.

I'll just cut to the quick as I am a little rough around the edges. Definition of Pup Trainer for the seller: Opportunity get rid of old washed up bag of bones for monetary gain. Definition of Pup Trainer for buyer : I can't afford what I really need to have. But if some would just make the deal sound sweeter than it really is. I will feel better about wasting my money. Not trying to make anyone feel bad for not being able to lay out big bucks for the real answer. I damn sure know I can't afford what I could use at the current time. Just tryin to keep it real.


Take care, Willie

CasB wrote:I realize it can vary from dog to dog, but on average, at what age would say a dog has gone from being a high producing dog to more of a "pup trainer" ??

No set answer to when a hound stops being a high producing dog, all different & Dewey gave excellent examples of reasons why some last longer than others. I differ a bit on my opinion, feel running pups with hard going dog in their prime can cause young hounds to get too far behind in a hard race. I would prefer a medium speed trainer who has a calling voice & uses it enough to keep those pups interested & able to stay close enough to allow them a chance to track the critter. There can be a point when those young hounds start to pull ahead, (I hope), when that occurs if the old hound starts to pull the pups back to then it is time to make a decision is the old hound doing more harm than good. If that one hound is all you have as a trainer, don/t be to quick release it from your possession, I have made that mistake, especially when hunting bobcat.
My idea situation has been to have a faster hound that pulls out on the medium speed trainer, insuring more catches, then have the trainer with that calling voice to insure the pups reach the tree.
In my opinion one of the most important jobs of any train is to be reliable to start & trail only the game of your choice. Have found young hounds hunted with trashy trainers, become trashy hounds & then have been very hard to break, dogs are like people, old habits are to change completely.
Hope this helps some young hound men. Trust my reason for posting is not to become famous, if it was I would be saying I catch a higher percentage than I have posted. Al

I agree with your way of thinking Al. If the old dog is holding the pups back, their either not ready yet or just don't have much potential. jmo..
I should add, depending on age.. What age do you consider a pup? Under a yr, a pup, over a yr it should be trying to take the lead. I would even say a 6 or 8 month old should be trying to take the lead. I'm not talking a dog in it's prime but just a good older dog. If they have a lose, the "pup trainer" catches up and staightens it out and the race keeps going. A pup needs to gain a little confidence by being on the frt end of a race, my experience is they loose interest when they get too far behind. And that, as many well know, is when bad things can happen. I'll shut now, I don't even know if I'm on subject...lol

Start them with the best you got! They will learn real quick how to keep up or you will learn real quick that they aren't gunna. They also learn to shut up and run or you will learn they're not gunna. I think one can learn a lot about what you will have in a dog by running it with the best as a pup. I want my pups and old dogs to shut up and do whatever it takes to get back in a race, because they will all get throwed out at some point or another. Call it cheating or whatever but for a dog to follow other dogs and a cat from behind barking when it could shut up and cut across and be in the mix of things is nonsense.
If i had the choice of having michale jordan coach my kid in basketball or the potbellied old man down the street i know who i would pick...... BignBlue!!!!!!!!

Mark, I think that's fine with a pup that has had a little exposure to a race. Do you do that the first time a pup is turned loose?