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Always seeing the comments about running vs tree hound makes me wonder how much bias we have based on the dogs we are able to see. Being from the east coast and always being a running dog man I have seen plenty of running dogs that can have and will tree Fox, cat, and even the dreaded raccoon, and seen breeders that consistently bred dogs that would tree, or bark/dog at a hole. I wonder if the west coast boys never had a real opportunity to have this stock crossed into their dogs bc they are all local hunters here not big name breeders, 95% the running dogs on the coast or down south now are field trial bred, or bred for coyote, not what west coast hunters would ideally want. I've seen a lot of tree bred dogs that could smoke a deer (we can hunt deer with dogs) but only a couple that could hang with the running dogs I've seen, perhaps if I was able to see some of the tree dogs out west I may feel different, but until this site had no clue the name of 1 famous houndsmen out west much less an ordinary houndsmen like myself, who might have dogs that fit the bill.
I'll be the 1st to admit I have a bias about the speed, stamina, and ability to catch game here with tree dogs, but I've never seen it done here, but I'm not saying there isn't a stock that could do it, I just ain't seen it, but that's something people don't work towards here so how could I have seen it? I think we all bring a lot of bias to some subjects based on what we know for. What we've seen. Who knows the right running dogs out west 40 yrs ago and no one may be hunting tree dogs, or the right tree dogs over here in the east and I may have a pen full of them to catch Fox.
Here's a video I seen on YouTube, no clue who it is, or what they are freeing, but for those that have never seen it happen here's fox dogs treeing
https://youtu.be/KStmqCZ7Irk
Perk

Perk they are treeing a dog.

Just kidding.

Excellent comments and I have often thought about the same thing. You really put it in words.

Hi Perk, good hearing from you. For sure, the first very good pack I ever hunted with was a mixture, running & tree, one pure running dog. I did not owned them,they caught a ton of bobcat, bear & coyote. The lone running dog in that pack was solid check dog on deer, seen him tested bunch of times, never failed, if a deer race erupted that male was back to alert his owner. He did tree, not what some would call a true tree dog, but he treed good enough for his owner. At that time of his owner/s life, dog did not have to bark much for Tom to find the tree. There was several of the running dog crosses in that pack that treed very good & very seldom false treed. It is not that I am bias against running dogs. The thing I have trouble agreeing with is when a hunter declares running dog crosses being superior to all other dogs. Those dogs caught a high percentage of the cats they ran, but there was a few cats that eluded them. I owned a registered treeing walker, some times he would run the front end on a hard running bear or coyote, he was no match for them on a hard to tree bobcat. Be sure to read TRW/S post, he is spot on. Al

Perk ,I don't think it's necessarily a bias as it is just selecting the type of dog you need to catch the game you choose to pursue.
If your running dogs readily tree don't you think they might have bred tree dogs in them somewhere down the line ? A lot of our grade dogs out here have some running dog in their ancestry.
Our western hounds have been bred for cat and bear for many generations so a fast dog isn't hard to come by .Getting a dog that can run,is a good track dog,can locate (bobcat ) and is a solid tree dog is more difficult.It's hard out here to get good locating tree dogs on bobcat even out of tree bred hounds .
I have nothing against running dogs as they have some good qualities we can use in cat hunting but its always been hard (for me anyway )to come up with good tree dogs .

Bludawg, that's the bias that helps form your opinion right there, u asked couldn't these dogs have tree dog bred into them that's why they tree, there we have the over all assumption again that they couldn't be decent trees dogs if strictly running dogs. I don't have great tree dogs up a tree, normally have one that will locate eventually, some quicker than others in years past, have always had dogs that found holes and bayed at them good, but we don't have enough game climb trees for dogs to practice enough to be good at it, even in the tree dog world a dogs gotta have the opportunity to tree to be a decent dog.
My post stated that if the correct lines of either were what the people originally started with on either coast maybe people would not feel the same way. Maybe what we do, see, think would be different, not just what we assume based on what we have seen and the others that hunt our area have seen, heard been taught.
I remember a conversation with Finney Clay one day as we were hunting where he said people didn't think you could rig bobcat in his area, but he sure nuff made it work in his area, not the same as breeds of dogs but shows the willingness to see that there are others ways to get it done, if you have the right tools.

I don't expect anyone to switch to running dogs, nor am I thinking of going to crosses or trees stock, just wonder how many of our biases cloud the judgement of what actually could exist in the hound world
Perk

I run plotts and am bias towards them. They perform to my expectations cat coon bear coyotes. My buddy has trigg and is bias toward them. this is a impressive line of running hound on coyote and some can smoke a cat, have trouble at hole or treeso these hounds are somewhat limited to coyote. the line of plott I am working is just as fast and has plenty off bottom. the bay/tree/stay of the plott surpasses any short comings.So everyone has bias to what he is feeding. Allthe other breed talk is more generalisations, certain running strains can tree some tree dogs can run. In the quest for better dogs the advantages of either breed has been noted. If crossing the two brought out the best of both it seems it would be a no brainer. We usually run a couple of both with great success so we havent crossed (YET)!!!

I am not biased at all. Everybody's dogs suck except mine. Bias has nothing to do with it. Its hard being the best so don't hate.

Perk, there are guys out here that have been trying straight running dogs of all types from all over the country for years. My son and i have had 3 straight running walkers from a very good strain in the S.E. One got poisoned and died at a young age and i got a litter mate sister to it. I have video where you could hear her locate a tree but she would never sit down and tree,she was a nice dog in every aspect except the tree and she was weak at rigging so i sent her back to where she came from and is doing a good job. My son has her brother and he is a nice dog that is treeing decent but no locate in him. The locate is a HUGE part of the equation out here. Even with the running x dogs we hunt now a lot of them take several minutes to locate and settle in treeing. They would rather run than tree. The upside is that they are real honest when they tree. Believe me if i can ever get my hands on pure running dogs that can consistently locate and tree out here i will be running them. I have traveled and seen how tuff they are in some of the hottest muggiest brushyest conditions possible and they can run back to back brutal races day in and day out. If you ever get tired of one treeing to much for you,send it out here and we will give it a go lol

perk wrote:I don't expect anyone to switch to running dogs, nor am I thinking of going to crosses or trees stock, just wonder how many of our biases cloud the judgement of what actually could exist in the hound world
Perk

I like this statement. As a general rule, I have found houndsmen to be some of the most closed minded individuals anywhere. I'm not saying all houndsmen are, but man oh man, the mere mention trying something new or different can lead to derision and ridicule a lot of times. Why this is case never made any sense to me.

It is almost like they want to say, "We are all for trying something new, as long as it's been done before".

Some have come pretty close to achieving what they consider to be the perfect hound, but most have not, which is why the other houndsmen are still making out crosses. It is in the decision making in regards to those out crosses where a bias can cloud the judgement. As long as we continue doing what we have always done, we can expect the same results we have always got. I think Einstein said that, but it's still true. Sometimes it takes some thinking outside the box to achieve those results that can move our hounds to the next level of performance.


Tex

The one female i own now has both running walker and trigg in her ancestry that i know of ,she's treeing some but isn't finished yet .I've had her bloodline on her mothers side for many ,many years .The locating and treeing will be the deciding factor in my keeping or culling her.
I've always heard that some triggs and Julys (full blood ) would tree and i believe that but haven't personally seen it.I have seen lots of running dog crosses ,most weren't much for treeing BUT some were exceptional !
Our bias(?) usually comes from our experiences in life.I do have certain breeds that i prefer but i'm a cat hunter first and i'd be proud to hunt anything that got the job done .
One of the best cat dogs i ever owned was black &tan ,bluetick and trigg.
Like Mark said if i could get my hands on a running dog that would hang a tree on bobcat i would love to own it .

Bludawg there is no more tree in the trigg/July than in the walker strain. It is all about it the dogs in that specific line have been bred with that trait in mind. Doubt you go to most of the trigg breeders in America today and find trigg that breed, as most are run for deer/coyote/Fox pen. Same with the July hound, even more so with the July and walkers.... but find the men who been breeding dogs with those traits or desire those traits and you have a much better shot of a running dog that will tree, May take them 2 yrs and 100 trees to start, but when you get one he will be honest. Can't just go to anyone that has a running dog and cross your fingers. I don't think people out west know who the ppl that may have it are, bc they aren't on computers, they are probably on tractors haha.
One things for sure though I don't think an east coast dog could go to hills out west and immediately fit in with the pack, terrain. Is a lot diff, and I don't think west coast could come here and immediately fit into a pack. And if your willing to give a diff stock a chance better a pup than a 5 yr old dog, hunting a 5 yr old dog and not getting what u want for 8 months til it adapted would be way more frustrating. I haven't ever gotten a dog from 150 miles south of here that suited immediately bc the terrain is so much flatter, they have to adapt, and I'm normally to impatient, so breed and hunt what I know, then cross them and start those pups haha. Happy hunting
Perk

Dan I always heard you had the best, normally your the one saying it though. Jk jk happy huntin perk

perk wrote:Dan I always heard you had the best, normally your the one saying it though. Jk jk happy huntin perk

Ya I usually speak the truth.

I like what you said about no one "breed" of running dogs will tree better than the rest cuz its very true. I have heard a lot of people claim that the Julys will tree way better than the Walker dogs. Well, that has not even been close to the case in my experience cuz a lot of the Walker dogs we have had would look up or at least stay at a hole while most of the Julys we have had couldn't even locate a coyote in a tube til they were 5. Every now and then though my dogs will tree a coon in the day. I know they can see it but its still pretty funny to me after I get over wantin to mud stomp them for wasting my time.

Dan, nothing worse than a dog messing with a coon when it's not your desired game. Mud. Stomp doesn't even calm me down, think I get so angry when it happens I foam at the mouth, I'd rather a deer chase, makes me much less angry

I think breeding helps but i strongly feel that digging/ baying a hole and treeing comes from dogs that want to put their teeth in the game they are broke on. A dog that don't want to bite and tug on a dead cat or fox is less likely to tree and more likely to move on and find something else to run. So in my opinion it's hard to get a dog to tree if you ain't catching and treeing game.

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