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I lost both my coon/bobcat hounds last year and we are purchasing a female pup today. My question is since the snow is here is there benefit to putting her first four months of work exclusively on bobcats before showing her coon in the spring. Should I bother letting her run barn cat or just walk her on as many bobcat tracks as possible. How I started my last dogs that had ran coon for years was on my barn cats first but I want to do this right. I can probably put her on 15-20 real cats by spring. Is that enough or should I supplement with barn cats on some of the off days.

Thanks Allen

Congratulations on your new pup, always exciting to think about where you new hunting partner will lead you.
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Jack

Ditto, young dogs are the most fun as long as it's not in the money season.

I say runs as many feral cats as you can when they are young. That's not the most popular of opinions, but it's served me better than waiting to run game.

I would like to thank Digger on here for making a 6 six year old boy feel so special. I was supposed to purchase 1 puppy and come to find out we got a buy one get one deal! Thanks so much Stan.
Allen

Start on the real thing, no need to play with a barn cat. Just keep walking tracks out and help it as much as you can when its needed. Obviously more tracks are better but that amount will give yuh a head start. Just have fun. Good luck hope you keep us informed

That is a great picture, handsome young man, nice looking pups. At 13 weeks little young to start on bobcat in my opinion. Working young dogs on barn cats can sure have it/s advantages, however if you plan to hunt in areas near any houses I would not work them on barn cats. Good luck Al

I agree, that is a handsome pair of hounds and a handsome son. You must be very proud of him.

Just for another perspective: remember that one of the most famous trainer of treeing walkers to ever live did not expose his pups to any dangerous game (ie able to inflict pain) until the pups were nearly one year old.

His dogs excelled and he got top dollar for them and he guaranteed them.

Most choose not to follow this model, and say their dogs turn out good. The ever present question which can never be answered is: “how much did I take out of them, and did they top out at a lower level than they might have if I had not let my ‘little child play football with NFL players’.” That could easily break a child from football, or at best give him serious reservations.

If you love bobcat hunting most of all, there is a distinct advantage to starting them on cats and keeping them on cats until cats become their first love. Coon will be easy to add to their cat hunting skill. Cat is not as easy to add to their coon hunting skill. For one issue: tree minded coon dogs on bobcats in MN not only get highly distracted by coon in brush piles and beaver lodges, (where cats often travel) but they can pull up short on a tree when they make a lose on the cat.

Day one was two ten minute sessions learning to heel on lead and load into and out of the dog box. Each followed by thrilling exposure to a caged farm cat for just a few minutes and then the kennel with the cat was walked out of the area.
The kids played with them in and outside the house until all energy was spent. Our friendly cats are probably debating moving to a different farm as all of their hideouts were discovered by two energetic puppies and a crew of hyper kids encouraging the pursuit.
When snow shows up we will be walking on lead and encouraging the following of bobcat tracks and expressing utter disgust on all other tracks. I am hoping by spring I am struggling to hold the leash as we follow along. If I can them accurately trailing bobcats and locating barn cats though the summer I will feel good. David would it be safe to let them actually attempt to jump a bobcat?

Redbarntrailhounds wrote: David would it be safe to let them actually attempt to jump a bobcat?

They are three months old right now. At six months, my opinion is they are too young to be discouraged by a Minnesota bobcat track that can last all day. People do it. I have done it. But i feel it was a mistake. If I do it now, it is for my own impatient pleasure or ego needs/ peer pressure, bragging rights, and not for what I feel is ultimately good for the dog.

Chances of them stopping a MN bobcat at that age are almost zero. So the danger is not so much that they might be hurt and discouraged by the cat. The danger is that they might have the drive to push themselves for many hours. Their bodies are not mature at six months and they can do serious damage to themselves (physical as well as emotional) if they have that much drive; and some walkers do.

Being bone tired, dehydrated, fatigued, lost, and alone at six months old is an entirely different experience than the same things at one year old. And I have not mentioned some potential dangers on a Minnesota swamp that are much better met by an older dog.

I think what you describe would be wonderful: walking them on tracks, yet keeping control of them; exposing them to the horrible hurtful scent of critters that are not bobcats, as well as showing them how exciting and wonderful bobcat scent is and how much you love that smell, and how when you get the slightest whiff of it, it makes you unbelievably excited and happy. time spent with you in the woods learning all kinds of things is a great thing for a pup at any age.

All I gotta say is that is a very lucky couple of pups to land in your family. Blessings.

Not trying to hi jack this thread but David, What are the major benefits to starting a young dog at a year old? I'm genuinely curious and how many people do you know to wait that long and what's there beliefs?

One of the best things about this season is that I have zero excuses to leave my kids at home. I have taken most of my kids raccoon hunting over the years and they have loved it. Either staying up late or just seeing how quiet and peaceful the nights can be out there.
The last few years with my previous dogs I didn’t shoot any since they were not worth anything. I let the older kids each get there first coon but after that we just went knowing we wouldn’t be shooting. One of my daughters only wanted to go if we were not going to shoot anything. I told them as hound hunters we are the only hunters that can actually practice catch and release like the fishermen do.
They have begged to go and I have been reluctant to take them early for fear of me ruining a potential lifetime of fun for my long runs through the woods. I don’t really care about the pace or amount of time we are on a track this year just that the dogs and kids learn. I will be showing my kids how and where we look for tracks. I will likely answer a million “why” questions. We will likely leave early for wet feet or cold hands but it is going to be fun.

Allen, it sure sounds like you have your priorities figured out. Your kids are blessed to have you for a father.

Merlo, the only man I know who waits a year is John Wick. His reasons are outlined in his books. But some are in my posts above. They have to do with physical and emotional maturity. I don’t wait a full year. But when I was young I expected my walkers to be able to tree their own wild coon by six months; and they did. They also maxed out at about a year old and never really got any better. There are genetic reasons for almost everything to do with dogs, but I can’t help but wonder how much higher they might have gone if I had started them later.

John feels strong that they finish out better dogs if they are physically and emotionally mature when they first face the real thing. I pay attention to him because he trained many times the number of dogs I have trained. I adjusted my starting age up by several months. My dogs later in life indeed topped out as better dogs than when I was younger. But I cant prove how much of that was because I started them later.

But I have witnessed pups whose progress was knocked backwards by a negative experience; and I have had a very promising pup that was completely ruined by one bad experience that hit her way too young. I waited and waited for her to come out of it, but finally gave her away for a pet. That still bothers me twenty years later.

The smarter a pup is, the more I need to protect it from negative experiences.

Those kinds of things never happen to me with older dogs because they are ready to face the fire.

I have seen pups develop bad habits, like barking out of place and over-dependence, that never fully left them simply because they were too young to understand what was happening or to keep up properly.

I have a theory that when tree bred dogs learn to tree too early it exacerbates the false tree problem. I don’t encourage them to tree anymore, and I hope they don’t discover it until they are at least a year old. With cat dogs I just hope they catch a few on the ground before they ever discover treeing.

John’s wisdom matches my experiences. It makes sense to me.

If a pup is wanting to go let it go. I've turned many a young hounds under a yr old with old dogs if they go they only get better with age! Andy

That is pretty much everyone Andy. I guess it needed to be said.

Do you have the curiosity to wait till one is ten months old? If you try that experiment let me know how the dog is doing comparatively at eighteen months and also at four years old. Hunt him side by side with a littermate who started going with the old dogs at five months, or whenever it would first go.

Most people never have and never will try waiting.

We protect our children from danger and discouragement and predators because we know the effects of negative events can scar them for life.
Pups are not children, but I believe negative experiences as pups can make life long impressions.
For example some pups never fully recover from getting ate up under a tree by a mean dog. And many dogs like that know to only do that when no one is around. I had a dog that was so good at that, the only way I ever figured it out was because of how my pups were acting at the tree. Then I had to figure out which dog was doing it to them. Dogs like that love to target puppies when the pup begins showing interest in the tree.

Picture an already tired, already cold, already quilled five month old in the middle of a five mile section of Minnesota swamp falling through the ice or running for his life from wolves. If he makes it out, it sure can suck all the confidence out.
When you turn a dog loose out there, these things are out of our control. I think more dogs would make it as bear dogs if they were physically and emotionally mature when they meet their first bear.

There are alternatives for feeding our egos other than displaying our young ones trying to act like adults. If you feel that is the best thing for the pup, then I guess you are going to have to do it. I don’t believe it is the best thing for the pup unless the situation is completely under my observation and complete control.
Watching the life altering event happen does not meet that criteria for me. I need to be able to stop it from happening.



It should be noted that John Wick does not keep his puppies penned up. They run free until old enough to get in trouble.

I absolutely am NOT advocating letting a pup rot in a pen for ten months. The more learning and human interaction/ dog/ farm animal interaction / chasing yard rabbits and squirrels/ deer gland training/ vehicle training/ obedience/ gun training etc. etc. the better. The only thing left to do at ten to twelve months is turn it loose on a hard running bobcat with a good cat dog.
[letting a pup run free on a farm where children are present accomplishes most of this preliminary learning. But when that is not possible, there are other ways also].

Looks like a bunch of fun right there. If you have the time please keep us updated with the progress. Kids and hounds always makes for a good read.
Count me on the list of guys that tries to wait a year before a pup has a full race with the big dogs. Its too much fun letting them be puppies to ask them grow up fast. When a pup is physically and mentally mature enough to handle an all day track is when I let them go. Maybe 10 months, maybe 13. I have a 6 year old dog now that I made all the mistakes with, she tore into a coon at 4 months old and got bit up. I let her out to chase bears at 5 months, she got lost and spent the night out by herself. She is a great dog, but she is sure stiff in the morning with aching joints. Wish hadn't let her run that hard that young.
Trash is trash regardless of age. My daughter has a barn cat so they are off limits, it never hurt their desire to hunt.
The end game is those kids. Dogs and cats are just a side story. Do right by them and every thing else will work itself out.