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The Cold Track
Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:23 pm
by NorWester
It seems to me from what I've read that most houndsmen refer to a "cold track" as an old track. The older the track the colder it is. Simple.
Do any of you guys hunting cats have instance where the track goes "cold" within minutes due, not so much from time passed as to when it was laid down, but rather from the conditions it was laid down in?
For instance, have you ever been in position to see the game go by, you walk or call a hound to the line within say 5 minutes only to find the track has gone cold? (meaning of course the dog can't do a damn thing with it
)
Or would you simply attribute such an occurrance to lack of ability (nose power) of said hound?
Something else I was curious about. When introducing your hound to a cold cat track and the dog starts walking the line out, do you assume or take for granted the hound can actually smell the track or has the dog been conditioned to recognize a cat track and walk it out by sight regardless of whether he/she can actually smell the track.
Is this part of what adds credit to a hounds ability to "cold track"?
How many guys out there acknowledge the difference if there is one?
Is it more important in cat dog to have one smart enough to train to walk out a cold track by sight until it can smell it.......or is it imperative to have the hound that has the actual nose power bred into them? Perhaps a combination?
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:07 pm
by Tim Pittman
Conditions are a big factor.AS far sight tracking that would lead me to think of snow,and I hate the stuff.I personally have never seen any of our dogs track bobs in the dirt by site.The cat u see crossing the road and turning the dogs down,are the hardest ones to catch if you can even get it started.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:44 pm
by Budd Denny
NorWester wrote:It seems to me from what I've read that most houndsmen refer to a "cold track" as an old track. The older the track the colder it is. Simple.
Do any of you guys hunting cats have instance where the track goes "cold" within minutes due, not so much from time passed as to when it was laid down, but rather from the conditions it was laid down in?
For instance, have you ever been in position to see the game go by, you walk or call a hound to the line within say 5 minutes only to find the track has gone cold? (meaning of course the dog can't do a damn thing with it
)
Or would you simply attribute such an occurrance to lack of ability (nose power) of said hound?
Something else I was curious about. When introducing your hound to a cold cat track and the dog starts walking the line out, do you assume or take for granted the hound can actually smell the track or has the dog been conditioned to recognize a cat track and walk it out by sight regardless of whether he/she can actually smell the track.
Is this part of what adds credit to a hounds ability to "cold track"?
How many guys out there acknowledge the difference if there is one?
Is it more important in cat dog to have one smart enough to train to walk out a cold track by sight until it can smell it.......or is it imperative to have the hound that has the actual nose power bred into them? Perhaps a combination?
Yes to all the above, have seen melted out or frozen tracks that I know were last nights tracks and the dogs couldn't do a thing with it. I'm sure more experienced dogs can and do run some by site, when you put dogs on enough tracks I'm sure they learn to do this, my Luke dog is put down on at least 50 tracks a season if not more, so I'm sure he dose run some by site and from his actions on some tracks I'm sure that's what he was doing. I have put him down on last nights tracks backwards to see what he would do and every time he has opened for a short ways but after 20-50 yards he comes back out and takes the track in the rite direction, so unless he's smart enough to tell witch way the toes are pointing he's smelling the track. Have seen the time when same dog couldn't smell a 20 minute old track that I seen cross the road even after walking it in a couple hundred yards. This happened in warm temps and the snow was almost slush.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:46 pm
by Budd Denny
Budd Denny wrote:NorWester wrote:It seems to me from what I've read that most houndsmen refer to a "cold track" as an old track. The older the track the colder it is. Simple.
Do any of you guys hunting cats have instance where the track goes "cold" within minutes due, not so much from time passed as to when it was laid down, but rather from the conditions it was laid down in?
For instance, have you ever been in position to see the game go by, you walk or call a hound to the line within say 5 minutes only to find the track has gone cold? (meaning of course the dog can't do a damn thing with it
)
Or would you simply attribute such an occurrance to lack of ability (nose power) of said hound?
Something else I was curious about. When introducing your hound to a cold cat track and the dog starts walking the line out, do you assume or take for granted the hound can actually smell the track or has the dog been conditioned to recognize a cat track and walk it out by sight regardless of whether he/she can actually smell the track.
Is this part of what adds credit to a hounds ability to "cold track"?
How many guys out there acknowledge the difference if there is one?
Is it more important in cat dog to have one smart enough to train to walk out a cold track by sight until it can smell it.......or is it imperative to have the hound that has the actual nose power bred into them? Perhaps a combination?
Great post Norwester
!!
Yes to all the above, have seen melted out or frozen tracks that I know were last nights tracks and the dogs couldn't do a thing with it. I'm sure more experienced dogs can and do run some by site, when you put dogs on enough tracks I'm sure they learn to do this, my Luke dog is put down on at least 50 tracks a season if not more, so I'm sure he dose run some by site and from his actions on some tracks I'm sure that's what he was doing. I have put him down on last nights tracks backwards to see what he would do and every time he has opened for a short ways but after 20-50 yards he comes back out and takes the track in the rite direction, so unless he's smart enough to tell witch way the toes are pointing he's smelling the track. Have seen the time when same dog couldn't smell a 20 minute old track that I seen cross the road even after walking it in a couple hundred yards. This happened in warm temps and the snow was almost slush.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:28 am
by NorWester
Tim Pittman wrote,
The cat u see crossing the road and turning the dogs down,are the hardest ones to catch if you can even get it started.
Why do you suppose that is?
So how do you guys in Oregon (where I'm guessing you don't get much snow) generally start a track? Are there enough cats in the areas you run that you can turn out the dogs confident they can jump one up in a reasonable amount of time that you don't ever worry about having to start a cold track?
Budd wrote,
I have put him down on last nights tracks backwards to see what he would do and every time he has opened for a short ways but after 20-50 yards he comes back out and takes the track in the rite direction, so unless he's smart enough to tell witch way the toes are pointing he's smelling the track
So do you think he would walk out a track he can see but can't smell at all or would he just turn it down?
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 2:34 am
by Budd Denny
NorWester wrote:
So do you think he would walk out a track he can see but can't smell at all or would he just turn it down?[/quote]
From what I've seen out of this hound is he will sight run every track he sees at first out of excitement, then afterwards he settles down and starts running by scent+sight.
Have tried to walk him out on melted out tracks and have seen him site run the track where he can but fall apart on melted out hillsides. So yes I believe he would (if possible) walk out a track he couldn't smell, but I think it's because of this hounds determination to hunt. This hound is running a 95% jump success so really I don't care how he gets it done, just know he's putting something together write to get it done and I would say it's a combination of both. ( just wish his finishing of the track % was as high
) I strongly believe in the terrain and conditions I run that there is a big difference between jumping and finishing a cat. The dog that can do both consistently is gifted, hunted with a couple but as of yet have never owned one.
Same as hare hunting, jumping and finishing is two completely different things in the conditions you and I run in
.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:49 am
by Tim Pittman
We rig probably 80% of the cats we catch.Some strikes are hot,some are cold trailed for hours before a jump.Like other game if you get started backwards you'll have to turn them around,unless you're blessed with a top notch catdog[bobcat dog/not liondog] that will turn it around before you have to intervene.I don't know what part of the country you are in,but don't believe that a top strike dog can't consistantly strike/trail/and tree bobs yeararound.There are a number of top cat hunters that read and sometimes post on this forum that would tell you the samething but most of them are very private about these things,so I won't mention any names.It's kinda like some of the posts I read awhile back about it being impossible for the guys up in Washington to tree 40-50 bear in a year[that just lack of either ability,time,experience or maybe a combonation of] bacause it certainly not for the lack of numbers or because they've been dogged into being tuff and hardened.I'm sure I could get alot of flack over this,and I'm not interested in that.We have went to drier,hotter,colder different country all together,and once the dogs are acclimated to the new surrounding we resume as normal.As for the coldtrail,there is no better way to season a dog,than to be patient enough to spend hours at this on aregular basis.
Thanks Tim
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:30 pm
by Nolte
I don't know much about cats, except we chase them when we find them and give it a whirl. It's sort of like throwing a nickel in the slot and pulling the handle, except with a lot lower odds.
In any case, I'm convinced that good snow track dogs (either yotes or cats) spend just as much time looking with their eyes for a track as they do with their nose. Most times they will bury their face way down deep in that first one and slink down it until another track intersects that one, then they will check that out. I've also seen them hit a frozen creek bed and immediately pick their head up start looking at the banks for where something went off and then go check that out. I think it's just something that they learn after being on a bunch of tracks.
Now if anyone can tell me why some of those same good snow track dogs, won't look around and find a cat that is right there and circling tight, please tell me. I'm all ears. It sure doesn't make any sense to me.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:27 pm
by liontracker
Here's some food for thought on this subject:
Two winters ago, I was out cutting track in 12 inches of fresh snow and came around a corner. Right in the road was a huge bobcat tom soaking up the first rays of morning sun. I had my best two dogs with me and they had been catching almost everything they started for the past three months. They were catching machines at that point. I stopped and turned them out within 90 seconds. I showed them the track, they stuck their nose down in it and just looked up at me like I was joking. They could not smell a thing. I walked in a half circle wth them and cut the track about 100 yds back track and they took it. When they got to the spot in the road where the cat made the jump, they stood on there heads, nothing. I had to walk down that track for about 500 yds before they got any scent. From there on they smoked it hard and had it caught within 300 yards.
I never believed a cat could shut down it's scent much, but after that episode I am a believer.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:39 pm
by david
Nolte wrote:Now if anyone can tell me why some of those same good snow track dogs, won't look around and find a cat that is right there and circling tight, please tell me. I'm all ears. It sure doesn't make any sense to me.
Your answer
might be found in your question.
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 9:12 pm
by NorWester
david wrote:Nolte wrote:Now if anyone can tell me why some of those same good snow track dogs, won't look around and find a cat that is right there and circling tight, please tell me. I'm all ears. It sure doesn't make any sense to me.
Your answer
might be found in your question.
I think I've read that on a fortune cookie before
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:05 am
by david
NorWester wrote:david wrote:Nolte wrote:Now if anyone can tell me why some of those same good snow track dogs, won't look around and find a cat that is right there and circling tight, please tell me. I'm all ears. It sure doesn't make any sense to me.
Your answer
might be found in your question.
I think I've read that on a fortune cookie before
I know it, my mom read it to me from her cookie but the authors name was not there for me to give him credit.
What was weird though, my sons cookie read: "your track dog will develop a cocain like addiction to bobcat scent"
Then my daughters read: "your dog will learn to find his cocain in little holes that he can see in the snow if he checks enough of them".
Then I was begining to predict that mine would say: "your track dog would rather go around getting cocain hits than to catch a bobcat three hundred yards away or less". But then I opened it and it said "please shut your mouth, you cant afford to loose any more freinds".
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 6:44 am
by pete richardson
"your track dog will develop a cocain like addiction to bobcat scent"
Then my daughters read: "your dog will learn to find his cocain in little holes that he can see in the snow if he checks enough of them".
Then I was begining to predict that mine would say: "your track dog would rather go around getting cocain hits than to catch a bobcat three hundred yards away or less". But then I opened it and it said "please shut your mouth, you cant afford to loose any more freinds".
david
i wish i would have understood what your talking about 30 years ago--
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:16 pm
by NorWester
I know it, my mom read it to me from her cookie but the authors name was not there for me to give him credit.
What was weird though, my sons cookie read: "your track dog will develop a cocain like addiction to bobcat scent"
Then my daughters read: "your dog will learn to find his cocain in little holes that he can see in the snow if he checks enough of them".
Then I was begining to predict that mine would say: "your track dog would rather go around getting cocain hits than to catch a bobcat three hundred yards away or less". But then I opened it and it said "please shut your mouth, you cant afford to loose any more freinds".
Re: The Cold Track
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:20 pm
by NorWester
Liontracker wrote,
I never believed a cat could shut down it's scent much, but after that episode I am a believer.
Hmmmmmm...... anyone care to comment?