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I have some catahoula x kemmer stock dogs that I would like to get into coyote/bocat/fox hunting. Mabye you could send me in the right direction. I hunt in the central coast of california. No snow, all dry ground. My dogs have made great hog dogs. They are closed mouth trailers with about 800yard range. Give or take few hundred yards. Now I have been hunting hogs for 15+ years and Im looking to get into chasing coyotes/fox and bobcats with the next round of pups. I am not going to run my current pack on yotes/fox or bobs. My good hog hunting permission is dwindling and I cant give up on hunting with hounds. Ok now the questions. Is a coyote/bobcat/fox combo a good Idea? Im thinking I might never tree a cat due to the large population of coyotes in my area. Will my dogs have the nose for it? I understand that I need some serious cold nosed dogs for bobcat. I have permission on some smaller sized ranches. Couple hundred acres on some. Will my coyote/bobcat/fox races take me on the neighbors property on a regular basis? Do I want dogs that will catch? Im really mot interested in getting to the end of a race just to see a dead mangled coyote/fox. Have I missed any important questions? Forgive me if I have repeated questions you guys have answered before. Any info would be great. please check back after you reply as im sure Ill have more questions to your replys.

There are many from your area who will hopefully come on here and answer much better than I can.

First off though, that breeding is something I have always wanted to see hunted on bobcat. I have hunted kemmers and they can catch a bobcat on the ground, and can locate and tree them. I think the catahoula could add some interesting things including a little more grit which I would have liked to have seen in the line of Kemmers I used. Hopefully, the Kemmer blood will allow your dogs to locate and tree better than some catahoulas probably would.

Some bobcats will stay and run in the same drainage, and that is a great thing about them. When you find one like that, dont kill her. You will know where to find her. She can lead around a few years worth of pups for you, and supply a new crop of runners every year on top of that. I Have heard similar things about gray fox. Coyote, forget it. If you want to run on small properties, better break the pups off coyote.

you might have a problem with the dogs killing cats with the catahoula blood. never hunted one, just what I have heard. The Kemmers I hunted would bay one well, but not kill it. Pair them with the wrong dog though, and you would have a dead cat. I am like you, I want to make the decision if a cat dies or not. .

Here is something for you to think about. Never heard of it, but it would be something:
I know of a livestock dog (spelled INTELLEGENT) Who on command will take the nose of a mean bull and not let go until he's told to. Needless to say he's had a few broken bones. But he delights in it. Now you are talking about some cow dog blood there. I have heard they are extremely intellegent. Why couldnt a guy train up his puppies not to kill anything unless told to do so???? I will probably never get to try it in this life time, but you know your dogs, what do you think?

My biggest frustration with the line of Kemmers I was familiar with: They would not cold trail unless they knew I was following them on the track. Even then, they might come back and check on me after awhile. It drove me nuts. But, the bottom line is, they caught bobcats. I will take that over a dog that never gives me a thought and spends all day not catching anything. I have the Kemmers at about a 30% jump to catch rate on these upper midwest cats. It is not the best I have seen, but it is definately pretty darn good and enough to keep you coming back for more.

I will be very interested in what you discover with your cross bred dogs. Please keep us informed. That could be the cross of the decade, who knows. Cold trailing may be your biggest problem, but if you have a high concentration of game, you might not want a cold trailing dog anyway.

Now I am kinda rethinking this whole thing. If you guess 30% percent success rate for the kemmer stock and most people agree then im not gonna be doin all that good. Add dry ground 100% of the time and a beginner like myself and im lookin at 10% if im lucky. I was kinda lookin foreward to running the yotes cause I thought I would be running game in no time flat. But if the races are gonna take me that far then im lookin at getting kicked off the last of the permission properties I got. Mabye I need to start fresh with some other blood. Heres a pic of the original 2 dogs I started with on the right is the kemmer. She was a natural bobtail. I dont know a whole lot about her bloodline. On the left is the catahoula. He cam outa camp-a-while catahoulas. He won some bay events in california. Id sure like some more feed back.

You shouldn't need a cold nosed dog to hunt the central coast, the cats are thicker than theives. You usually won't end up having to cold trail to get a race and sometimes with all the private property and weirdo hippies that live in the woods around there cold trailing dogs will cover too much country anyways. Early every morning when the sun gets out, but before it gets too warm (usually about the time the dew is gone) the cats will be out at the edge of the brush fields hunting gophers and ground squirrels. That being said I have hunted it with cold nosed dogs but they would usually get on a hot track before too much cold trailing got done.

bigboarstopper wrote:Now I am kinda rethinking this whole thing. If you guess 30% percent success rate for the kemmer stock and most people agree then im not gonna be doin all that good. Mabye I need to start fresh with some other blood. .

Big boar stopper, if you think 30% catch rate on bobcat is not all that good, you might be in for a rude awakening when you start hunting bobcat. About 95% of the coon hound stock I have ever tried on bobcat could not produce a 30% catch rate. More like 1%

Dont give up on those dogs without trying them. They could be exactly what you need, but you will never know that until you give them a couple hard years of practice. If you like those dogs and enjoy being out with them, go have some fun. If you dont like them, that is another story. I sure would like to know how that kind of cross would do.

if you think 30% catch rate on bobcat is not all that good, you might be in for a rude awakening when you start hunting bobcat. About 95% of the coon hound stock I have ever tried on bobcat could not produce a 30% catch rate. More like 1%

Wow, those are some heavy stats, kinda like the ole 50/50/90 rule. I'f you're like me I'm sure you all know it.... if there's a 50 % chance of getting it right there's a 90 % chance I'll get it wrong.

Also a 12 % chance I got this rule wrong too, but hey.....who's keeping track?

I can only compare it to what I know. When im running hogs I strike roughly every other trip and I catch about 50% of the time. So im used to 50% success rate, give or take. Sometimes ill kill 2 or 3 hogs in a single run. David said im really lookng at 1% success rate. Thats one cat treed for evert 100 times out? THAT CANT BE RIGHT? I wouldnt wanna set myself up for failure. I dont want to set my dogs up for failure either. 1%???

[quote="david. About 95% of the coon hound stock I have ever tried on bobcat could not produce a 30% catch rate. More like 1%
.[/quote]

No no no, I never meant to imply that about your cur, catahoula cross dogs. Those are most definately not coonhounds in my book. Coon hounds are those dogs with long ears and big bawl mouths and stuff like that.

Man, I hope you try those dogs on bobcat. Dont listen to me or anyone else, just take those dogs you got and have some fun with them. I got a gut feeling that kind of cross will do good, and might even do absolutely amazing. In fact, if I was in the position to test one out, I would be trying to get a pup off you.

By the way, the absolute best bobcat dogs I have ever been around, assumed exactly the same posture and attitude your picture perfectly displays of your dogs when they are not hunting. Those eyes look relaxed, it's cause those eyes got you and the world figured out. They know what you are feeling better than you do yourself.

Bigboarstopper,

Sucess is based on your expectations!

We go to hear our Hounds work, the "Opry" is what it is all about for us.

Catching is incidental to hearing the Hound work, and is what is allowed by State Law in the States we hunt. This is why we are able to Hunt 12 months out of the year.

We are treeing a lot more Cat than we used to.

We are able to successfully terminate over 97% of our Jumped Cat either treeing or catching. The other 3% are filed under S$%# happens. Some times conditions, most times just a smart Cat!

But all Races are successes to us as we are able to hear the "Hound Dog Opry" play!

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

Im starting to figure out what questions to ask. what do you all consider a success rate? What would you say a success rate for strikes to tree? 3 strikes for every cat treed for example? Or 1 strike for every 3 trips out? Like dads dogboy said im in it for the dogs. If they strike and bay a hog for me its a good hunt. Dosent matter really if they end up losing it. I just like to hear the dogs work. But for the new guy into cat hunting I would like to know im on the road to success. I dont have to get there every time. Just wanna know im heading in the right direction as im trying to figure out my way. all your responces have been great so far thanks.

david wrote:I have the Kemmers at about a 30% jump to catch rate on these upper midwest cats. It is not the best I have seen, but it is definately pretty darn good and enough to keep you coming back for more.

bigboarstopper wrote:Im starting to figure out what questions to ask. what do you all consider a success rate? What would you say a success rate for strikes to tree? 3 strikes for every cat treed for example? Or 1 strike for every 3 trips out? .

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bigboarstopper, When I use the phrase "jump to catch rate" By "jump" I mean: cold trailed to the point of catching up with the cat so it is a hot track. By "catch" I mean forcing the bobcat to stop long enough for me to get there. It might be bayed, it might be treed, and hopefully not, but it might be stretched. This figure has nothing to do with how many times I go hunting, it has nothing to do with how many cold tracks I put the dogs on. It is mearly "jump to catch rate" How many of the cats jumped are actually caught.

There would be another rate that could be measured by percentages: the cold trail to jump rate
then also the "hunting trip to cold trail" rate. or the "hunting trip to catch rate"

Outside of one particular year, I have never had my hunting trip to catch rate average over 50% over the course of a 12 month period.

But I have had my jump to catch rate near 100% with a certain dog over the period of a hunting season.

I also have had my cold trail to jump rate near 100% with another certain dog over the same hunting season.

I dont keep records and I am sure there were things that would destroy a 100% figure if I did. Like I can remember the catch dog following along on days when she was feeling sick or had her feet wrapped up (she hated that). Or just sick of facing big cats all by herself cause she was worn out from extremely hard hunting. But basically any cat she WANTED, she had.

But put those two dogs together, and you have an amazing hunting season that has forced me to re-think everything I thought I knew about bobcat hunting and bobcat dogs. Honestly, I didn't like it. It started to feel like coon hunting. It started to feel like I was an NFL linebacker defending a jr high running back. I dont like that feeling. The most beautiful thing about this pair though: they could hold a bobcat tightly bayed. They would not kill it unless there was another dog there to upset their perfect balance. One was a chicken and bayed the back door at least 6 feet behind. The other would be a kill dog if she had anybody there brave enough to get the cat to look away. But the cat had no reason to look away, and she would just bay him in the face.

It is probably a very good thing I dont like that feeling of completely outclassing my competition because chances of me ever having two dogs like that at the same time again are not very good.

But this did not all happen by complete accident, and as Mr. Clay says, they catch more now than they used to and they have been doing it a very long time. Plan on a long learning curve. But it is just as challenging as chess and a lot more exciting and fun.

david, just curious what bloodlines (not breeds) of 'coonhounds' you tried that only gave you about 1% success? That sounds pretty darn lousy...even some of the sorrier cat hounds I've seen caught more often than that.

Liz ODell wrote:david, just curious what bloodlines (not breeds) of 'coonhounds' you tried that only gave you about 1% success? That sounds pretty darn lousy...even some of the sorrier cat hounds I've seen caught more often than that.

Liz, I had a very rough start in this sport. There was not any bobcat hunters I could tag along with. I dont know why I kept at it, but I did. I actually had some pretty amazing coon dogs that people have told me in recent years they still have that blood. They did wonderful on bear. I could not catch a thing with them hunting bobcat in the coastal mountains. 1% is not an exageration. I hunted all the time, and had a great cold trailer that could keep the cat moving, but could not catch anything. I could take them to the Cascades and the desert and catch bobcats. In the coast they were worthless.

When it comes to catching bobcats on the ground, I myself have never seen a pure bred UKC coonhound that could do it except in deep snow. Pecentages in my experience would actually be less than 1% unless I counted ideal catching snow conditions. I know there are some that can do it, and do it all the time. There is just a whole lot of things I have never seen, in fact most things I have never seen. And that is one of those things I have never seen.

When it comes to the "bobcat hunting knowledge" pie shaped graph: What could be known about bobcat hunting is the whole pie. What I know is a sliver so tiny you would have to use a magnafying glass to try and eat it with a pair of tweezers. I only know what I know. But I am pretty familiar with that little sliver of the pie. I been choking on it for about thirty years now.

interesting...did you ever form an opinion or ryme and reason as to their floundering on the coast? Yep, there are UKC dogs that can catch cats on the ground
Actually down here I have seen the opposite, cats always tree when the snows deep and get caught (on the ground) when they think they can put the sneak and run on them. Good luck on figuring out the cat thing, I'm always learning too. I had to learn by myself as well and luckily was blessed with one of the cattiest dogs you could ever ask for...actually I think learning on your own will eventually put you way ahead of the curve of those that learn it 'all' from others.

Ms. Liz,

Thought David might need some support with his "Sweeping" Statement about UKC Coon Hounds not being able to consistantly catch Bobcat except in the Snow!

These type of Hounds are great for what they are bred to do. They are Trail Hounds and in the Country where that type of Hound is needed they are great. However for lots of the Country and in different conditions you do not need a Hound to tell you where a "Bobcat had been". You need a Hound to tell you where a "Bobcat is going".

In our Pack we have several Hounds that are always swinging out ahead of the Race, anticipating where the Cat may be going, cutting him off on the road running trips or heading him off when the ole Cat heads out across clearcut. Dad terms this as "taking the slack out".

Treebred Hounds are not bred to do this, the quarry they have been bred to pursue is more plodding and leaves more scent and generally does not "Run" as much as a Bobcat will.

Like David, my piece of the Bobcat knowledge pie is very very small, but over 57 years at the "School of Hard Knocks" Dad has earned a generous slice. What I have related is paraphrased from him (good manners won't let me make direct quotes)!


Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy