Our enemies with in our own circle in Ca.

[Dale T]

[outlaw13]

So who is getting this thirty million dollars and it is getting spent how? Sounds like someone needs to audit where the money goes.

[Dale T]

2787. Notwithstanding Section 13340 of the Government Code. the' money in the fund is continuously appropriated, without regard to fiscal years, as follows:

(a) To the Department of Parks and Recreation, four million five hundred thousand dollars (4,500,000) annually for allocation as follows:

(1) One million five hundred thousand dollars ($1,500,000) for projects that are located in the Santa Lucia Mountain Range in Monterey County for expenditure by the Department of Parks and Recreation and for grants to the Monterey Peninsula Regional Park District.

(2) One million dollars ($1,000.000) for acquisitions in. and adjacent to, units of the state park system.

(3) Two million dollars ($2,000,000) for 50 percent matching grants to local agencies for projects meeting the purposes specified in Section 2786 and. additionally, for the acquisition of wildlife corridors and urban trails, nature interpretation programs, and other programs which bring urban residents into park and wildlife areas, The grants made pursuant to this subdivision are subject to the conditions of subdivision (d) of Section 5910, and Sections 5917 and 5919, of the Public Resources Code, as nearly as may be practicable.

(b) To the State Coastal Conservancy, four million dollars ($4,000,000) annually.

(c) To the Santa Monica Mountain. Conservancy, five million dollars ($5,000,000) annually for the next 10 fiscal years, commencing with the 1990-91 fiscal year. The money shall be used for the purposes specified in Section 2786 for wildlife habitat, and for related open-space projects, within the Santa Monica Mountains Zone, the Rim of the Valley Corridor, and the Santa Clarita Woodlands. Of the total amount appropriated pursuant to this subdivision, not less than a total of ten million dollars ($10,000,000) shall be spent within the Santa Susana Mountains and the Simi Hills, and not less than a total of ten million dollars (S 10,(101),(1110) shall be spent within the Santa Clarita Woodlands. These funds shall be expended in accordance with Division 23 (commencing with Section 33000) of the Public Resources Code during the operative period of this section as specified in subdivision (f) and in Section 2797. The Legislature may, by statute. extend the period for expenditure of the funds provided by this paragraph.

(d) To the California Tahoe Conservancy, five hundred thousand dollars ($500,000) annually.

(e) To the board, the balance of the fund.

(f) This section shall become operative on July 1, 1990, and, as of July 1, 2020, is repealed, unless a later enacted statute, which becomes effective on or before July 1, 2020, deletes or extends that date.

2796. (a) The Controller shall annually transfer the sum of thirty million dollars $30,000,000.00 from the General Fund to the Habitat Conservation Fund, less any amount transferred to the Habitat Conservation Fund from, but not limited to, the following accounts and funds:

http://mounainlion.org/117_text.asp

[broncobilly]

Let me put things in a little different light for you.

The livestock owners who are getting the depredation permits did not pass the ban. In fact they are among your most natural supporters in your fight to get hunting back. If one of them comes to you and tells you that he has a depredation permit and asks if you will help him fill it, then you are foolish if you think that he will still support you next time if you turn him down now.

I agree that this is a bad situation, but burying the knife in the back of your friends and neighbors who come to you for help will be counter-productive in the long run.

Bill

[Dale T]

[Jeff Eberle]

[broncobilly]

Well, that was enlightening, given the attitude of the two replies to my last post, I now understand why you have lost your hunting "rights", I believe I also understand why you will probably never get them back.
To roughly paraphrase Mr. Clay from another post, if you will not work together, both among other hunting groups and with non-hunting groups that would be natural allies in your fight, to build support and good will, you will never win your fight.
Mr. Eberle says "Take away the depredation permit and I'm sure they will join are team then." That is another way of saying that if you screw them bad enough they will help you. For anyone who knows anything about human nature, I believe the lack of foresight in that statement is self evident.
Dale T says "they need to figure out how to deal with THERE problem without us." Ask yourself this question. If they figure out how to deal with THEIR problem without the help of houndsmen, what incentive do they have to ever help the houndsmen in the future.
I used to labor under the, obviously mistaken, assumption that there were still some Californians who had their head on straight, but it now appears to me that everyone there is drinking the kool-aid. As a ranch owner/houndsman I can tell you that your attitude has severely dampened my enthusiasm to help you get your hunting back, and I don't even live in your state, I can only imagine how offended the people in the agricultural sector of your state must feel.
Because what happens in CA affects what happens in other states, and because the "anti's" successes there embolden them in other states, I hope you will win your fight, but your "screw the ag sector" attitude makes it very difficult for me to care whether you personally ever get your hunting back.

Bill

[mike martell]

Anthony Weiner gets to eat from the variety box without consequences or concern for what your opinion is, or for that matter his wife's......As long as free permits are handed out like candy at a parade, I'm sure the cattlemen, timber producer, crop grower could care less about hound hunting rights in any state! As long as your only interest is killing all the cougar so you have your deer and elk hunting has proven out to work just exactly as it has gone here in Oregon. Why do you think the Democrats control the Nation? Could it possibly be all the free stuff? Why bother when you can have your cake and eat it too! Not much incentive to cut the cord when you are milking for all its worth!

We found out how well this worked for hound hunters here in Oregon with our legislation, H.B. 3395 that never made it to the Senate floor for a vote while the Government agent bill 2390A, sponsored and pushed by OHA smoked all the way through the Senate without a single NO vote and our ten thousand members of the Oregon Hunters Association that shoved the Government agent bill straight up our ass.....

I suspect those deer and elk hunters also really don't care about any hound hunter in any State.....Here is the bottom line...No one cares unless it impacts you in a direct way....That is reality and thinking that you can all walk hand in hand is really by definition foolish!

99% of all hound hunters don't know the difference between a snare set on a trail to choke an animal to death and the mechanically fired cable snare set over rank baits that attract bear and lions, bears and animals that are simply slaughtered for the sake of killing. I also find it hard to swallow the cougar mandate or deliberate targeting of all cougar to include females and kittens to be hunted down and treed over Government or agent hounds and dumped in the landfill like trash as being an acceptable practice....

You want to go deep into the past about hound hunter misconduct and the reasons for rejecting all of us for Government when sport hunters breaking the law on steroids can't hold a candle to the destruction and pure slaughtering of thousands of targeted non targeted species?

It sure would make it easier if we could all post about all our cool hound hunting adventures and not have a care in the world....I got lost in the past with David's bobcat book in a time when we hunted our hounds and roads were open with very few locked gates...One by one this all changed and Government is slowly tightening the rope around all our necks. You might think you live in a care free State....Think again, your next!

[Dale T]

So Bill we can do just what Oregon did back when they lost there hound hunting and just jump right in with the Dept of Fish and Wildlife/USDA and do all there depredation an now they have enough houndsmen lining up they don't need the houndsmen to manage there #'s and I would think that the cattlemen would be smart enough to realize that if the F&W/USDA can't take care of the depredation they would be the first to jump in with us to get the hound hunting back (and they did stand with us in our fight a the capital of SB1221), if we don't create a NEED for us they won't have a need for us. We have seen what hasn't worked in the past in other states that have lost there hounds and being the nice guy's that step in and do the desperations thinking that they were doing a good thing just shot them in the foot. We aren't just going with the attitude of "screw the ag sector" because we lost our hounds, we are showing that we are needed and the state can't handle the bear/lion population without houndsmen.

[broncobilly]

Dale,

I would never suggest that you "just jump right in with the Dept of Fish and Wildlife/USDA", It is my firmly held opinion that the government is almost always the problem, almost never the solution.
The cattlemen are, obviously, smart enough to realize that they are better off with you than without you, as evidenced by them standing with you in the original fight on SB1221. However, if you now refuse to help them when they have a depredation problem, then you are changing the dynamic and making yourself less relevant. The winning strategy in any conflict is to incapacitate the enemy while holding your own force intact and/or enlarging your own force at the expense of the enemy. Splintering you own force by telling a segment of that force that they are on their own is not conducive to the goal of holding your own force intact or enlarging it.
The plain truth is that they do NOT need you to solve a depredation problem, there are many other solutions. Many of the other solutions are not legal, most are not as ethical, none are as economical, but they are available and they will be used if houndsmen make themselves unavailable. While I have no personal knowledge of what they are actually doing, reading some of the other posts suggests that they are already using methods that are less discriminate, less targetable, less in accordance with sustainable consumptive use, and more expensive than hounds.
California houndsmen do have a valuable service to offer to their fellow citizens. I believe that they would be better off by continuing to help their allies and doing more to help other potential allies see both the potential benefits of hounds and the disadvantages of the alternative methods currently being used in the absence of hounds instead of telling their past allies "you're on your own" while simultaneously telling everyone around that "you need us". They don't NEED you, at least not to any greater extent than you need them, but you and I can certainly agree that they would be much better off with you than without you.
C. John Clay(Dad's dogboy) started a thread in this section of this forum that I believe is right on target, if I were in your shoes, and serious about your stated goal, I would have a long conversation with him.
I originally posted on this thread to try to give you a different perspective and to be helpful, not to get myself embroiled in an argument, and I am not going to stay in one. I hate typing, in fact I am quite surprised that I typed this much, so this will in all likelihood be my last post on this thread. If there has been anything that will be helpful to you, good, if not, good luck anyway.

Bill

[Peter Meyer]

"There is no hunting like the hunting of bear with hounds, and those that have hunted bear with hounds long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."
-p. Meyer with a little inspiration from Hemingway. 1221 sucks and whoever this guy is just let it go. If I had the means to fight it in court I would. Come 2015 season they will be begging someone to do something about the bear "problem" Gov. Brown and his HSUS whore/dog walker Jennifer Fearing are elitist tyrants that need to be run out of California. Brown can head south and Fearing can go to some damn european country where her liberal views and skewed sense of freedom are acceptable. Remember they read this.

[Dale T]

In the previous post on this issue I have mistakenly grouped the USDA with the Ca. Fish and Wildlife as the same, they are two different government agencies with different functions. When I spoke about the USDA I was not pointing to the employees but to there policies and I understand that they are not allowed to come forward due to the Hatch Act of 1939 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939
if anybody took this as a attack or finger pointing on the employees this was my mistake and I am sorry.

Dale Tobiassen

[bigfootexp]

It is not a fair fight and as long as we continue to try to fight fair we will continue to lose!!! The Human Society doesn't fight fair. They lie to the people and twist the truth to achieve their agenda. In a world gone by good and truth would prevail, but I don't know in todays liberal society with the media spinning things to manipulate and control the masses that that can ever be try again. So I don't know where that leaves us, but I do know that helping fish and wildlife with any part of their agenda is not going to help our overall cause, but the truth of the matter is it is probably the only way you will legally stay in the hunt. Unless a great leader comes along with the ability to unite all the sportsman houndmen include which by the way is the hardest group to unite, all will be lost in the end

[Dale T]

I posted this under it's own title and I can't stress how much this need to happen for us to even think we will ever have a chance to get anything back or for that matter even hold our ground:
If we are to survive..................... #1 We MUST reach out to every other hunting/shooting/outdoors/off road ECT.... group and get them to stand up before the target is on there backs and just because HSUS/PETA may not be at there door today THEY WILL BE SOON! show them what has and is happening to all us in every state where the anti's have come after us, the anti's have been telling for years what they want and how they will try and get it, some of the sources to show them are:

http://www.humanewatch.org/
https://www.activistfacts.com/
http://protecttheharvest.com/
https://www.gunownersca.com/

# 2 Get politically involved we have to change who working for us at our capitals here in California hunting and gun bills get voted right down party lines with very few breaking lines, when we lost SB1221 in 2012 and AB2205 this year we stood almost alone we had a few other groups stand with us but very few, these other groups either don't think it will happen to them or don't care that it's happening to us.

# 3 Get involved with you local/state houndsmen group if we can't stand together as houndsmen how can we expect the other hunting group to stand with us.

#4 Don't stand around waiting for somebody else to stand up for YOU! Register to vote take the time to check to see where your politicians stand on your SURVIVAL!

We are some of the toughest, don't back down, hard headed people in this nation and we are getting our ass's kicked by laying down and letting it happen!

Until we get these things in line we will be easy picking for the anti's.

[dwalton]

Bill you have some very good ideas to bad people out there that won't listen and keep doing the same old same old and expect a different out come. As I was told to be it true or not there is almost $ 300,000 thousand in a fund to protect the rights of hound men in California. Money talks by buying ads for OUR cause and contributing to politicians as the humane society has done. I learned a long time ago that if I wanted to make a difference I had to take 100% of the responsibility myself and not blame other people for what has or is happening. We as hound men have caused our own problems by our actions or inactions. We see down a narrow tunnel, just maybe we need to look at what other people see and think, IT is not my place or anyones else's to make judgement of what other people think That will be done by someone higher than us. I don't agree with people taking our rights. The way we as hound men have been doing has not been working out very well for us just maybe we have been going about it wrong? Look at your adversary and see what worked for them just maybe it could work for us. There is a lot of energy put into bitching and making people wrong. As stated before we are all in this together, the only way a change can be made now is all working together. Dewey