Kinda slow

Share your hunts and discuss your dogs
rickyfarrell10
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby rickyfarrell10 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:29 pm

Yeah I have had the same problem deer proofing dogs. I rig my dogs and can have a deer stand 10 feet from the truck dogs never say a word. Go on down the road dogs blow up like it’s a screaming hot bear track. Get one of the dogs down and they take you straight to a deer track. Baffles the heck out of me?


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macedonia mule man
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby macedonia mule man » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:48 pm

Perk, if you were starting from scratch and had no broke dogs and couldn’t find any broke dogs, how would you take a pack young dogs that had never ran anything and made deer proof dogs out of them without ruining the whole bunch?
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby Phillipsj » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:50 pm

Thanks. I break mine off deer in an area where there thick as cattle, the county is bow only, and setting a pup up is fairly easy but I have had hounds that couldn't resist if nothing else was moving. Perks point is what I was getting at, the red dog is run to catch and jumps game other dogs are grubbing around the track. I guess I should say that I would like that drive in a full running dog and from what I understand pen dogs are frowned on from catching, is that right?
lawdawgharris
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby lawdawgharris » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:17 pm

We have a high population of deer here. I've found it easier and surer to deer break them at home. I ad a dog that decided he wanted to run a couple. I took a dead deer(fresh) and put a dog collar on it. Then I attached a really long rope to the dogs collar and ran it through the deer's collar and got way back as far as I could. Then I let the dog approach the deer on it's own. As soon as it stuck it's nose to the deer I pulled the rope so the dog couldn't retreat from the deer, kept it sucked up to it. At the same time I layed on the shock collar. When I was satisfied that the dog thought the deer was trying to eat him I let off and let him have slack at the same time. A minute later I pulled the slack out and done it again. Never bobbled on a other deer. I like this method because there's no mistaking what's happening on the dogs part in his mind or mine. I remember once when I cast my old gyp. 4 does were standing right where I wanted to cast. We pulled up and they trotted off across a pasture. They were about 400 yards away when I cast her. She threw her head up and ran straight to them. They continued on another 100 yards as they watched her close the gap between them with me yelling at her to get out. They turned and went north and stopped in the wide open. She ran straight where they turned and put up bayed about 50 yards inside the woods. If she had had a shock collar on I would have shocked the heck out of her because it looked like she was running the deer when she actually was winding hogs that happened to be bedded opposite side of the deer from us.

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lawdawgharris
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby lawdawgharris » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:23 pm

Another benefit to this method is that you can do it to any age or experience dog. I don't like to be hard on a young dog for trashing before I think they understand what we are in the woods for. We cast hunt and I have seen it discourage a young dog or two. This way when they smell a deer they already remember that it is bad and don't want to entertain the idea of running it, disinterested from the get go.

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perk
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby perk » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:42 pm

Mule man, 20 years ago I did just what your asking with a group of young dogs, broke them from scratch without a broke dog. Have purchased alot of deer proof dogs over years, most didn’t suit, but i started with no broke dog and broke them. Watched my daddy do it with pack of beagles on rabbit with no help as a young boy. However not being able to find a check dog seems impossible, if you have the time to talk and the $$$ to buy it, all you would need is a worn out check dog, and correct them when old dog says it’s not right. could prob even do it with a worn out coon dog that won’t run deer but will trash on cat or fox.
Not being able to find one seems a poor excuse to me. Just be realistic what u need the dog for, you need a dog to start a cat, or go to your dogs and come back if he/she finds it smells like a deer or yote.
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macedonia mule man
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby macedonia mule man » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:40 pm

A lot of pen dogs do catch and kill and they usually banned from pen running.reason being is a coyote cost around $150. The old outside fox hunters I hunted with never cared to catch. They wanted a all night race with a den after daylight.
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby macedonia mule man » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:08 pm

Perk, my dogs make it sound so good the check dogs I used before come unchecked pretty fast. I’ve had people loan me check dogs that backslid first jump.
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby lawdawgharris » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:07 pm

Pier pressure is real, lol

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Re: Kinda slow

Postby perk » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:24 am

Mule, there are a lot of ways to try to get on good game when starting dogs, depending on whats legal in your area and the time and patience you have to do those things, IF it is legal do things like play a caller to try to entice game into road then cast on him hot, or at least it may get him up and moving where dogs can smell him. IF it is legal you can set traps and release game for dogs. Or ride around til you see one to cast on, or have every person you meet call you if they see one crossing the road or sneaking around a field or in edge of woods, the more spys a man has more likely he is to get a call. Most don’t have patience to stick with it and end up having deer or coyote or whatever other races bc we as hounds men like to hear a race, but those with the patience could do that.
Tons of ways ppl have broke dogs and usually the most important part is a diet of the right game, esp after fierce correction. I wont post ways I have used other than shock collar for knowledge that antis troll this site, be glad to tell you personally if you want to know. I run around deer dogs very often and once I call one broke I ain't worried about it no matter how big or hard the deer race is. I've owned many that crawl under the truck when a dog opens on off game.
Outside hunters in my neck of t he world have always wanted dogs that could catch game not run all night and find a hole, but diff strokes for diff folks (not that I'm blood thirsty bc I leave game up trees whenever possible, if lucky enough to make something climb).
Now one thing I will say from the last post goes back to a place we disagree about the importance of breeding in a dog. Perhaps the reason you struggle to deer proof dogs is bc the lines you use are more difficult, there are certainly lines easier to break and have qualities outside hunters look for. So yea any cross or stock may have potential to run good, but running good is only part the battle in building a pack for specific game, and having a line that breaks easier and wants to please is a major plus. I've hunted dogs that I never got 100% broke but helped my chase so I kept them, but they didnt start deer just couldnt turn race down, i knew them and their faults and handled them accordingly. I've hunted some it took 5-6 years for me to be confident. And I've raised and hunted some i never corrected bc the start out on right game, had plenty of good running, and stayed away from deer races and never would join one by time they were 3 they would turn it down like a dog I was hard on the break. I think breeding makes that breaking alot easier. Just my thoughta
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Phillipsj
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby Phillipsj » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:24 am

As far as I know I'm the only person in my area that will run a red with a pack on purpose and the spots those races happen are on farms that I receive permission for on a predator control basis. When a man looks you in the eye and says I only ask you harvest anything you tree a feller has an obligation. I have several spots in the mountains I run greys and rarely harvest to run again. The half July is my first running cross and he was a 4hr drive away and I took a chance on him adding him to my bear pack which was all english. Over the past 4 years ive changed the style I hunt by adding leps into the mix with results I'm satisfied with but in the future I would like some more running dog with the same brains and drive to catch. I appreciate all the knowledge here and conversation.
macedonia mule man
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby macedonia mule man » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:06 pm

Back in the day when I first started this, I was having trouble with trash and a old sage told me I needed a check dog and explained what it was for. So I came by one. First time out we started a track and old check dog fell in there and according to Garmin he was out front. I got excited, I’m fixing to catch me a cat. About 30 minutes later I got ahead of the race just as 2 half grown does crossed the road. Needless to say,back to the drawing board. Talked to another old sage and he said to get a check dog to check the first check dog. Guess what, no difference. After the fourth check dog,to check the check,dog to check the check dog, I decided the check dogs were doing better on trash than the dogs I had originally so I got rid of the original pack and kept the better trash running check dogs. I did run across an old check dog that would stay with my dogs and when they jumped she left with them but would leave them and go find her some trash to run in another block. That has been my experience with my check dogs.
lawdawgharris
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby lawdawgharris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:26 pm

Perk you are definitely right about certain strains and breeds being more/less susceptible to running different game. Its exactly why certain breeds are used for specific disciplines. Some naturally have a preference to find/catch bear. Others prefer yotes or coon, etc. That trait an be intensified in families of certain breeds. Y'all probably get tired of my hog hunting comparisons but it's the easiest examples I can give, sorry. One of these examples is our catch dogs. Most use pit bull or pit bull crosses. It's because they are the most natural as far as prey drive with the athleticism and the toughness to get the job done. That being said, just because of their breed doesn't mean they are the right fit. Just because they will grab a hold of a hog doesn't make them a catch dog. Certain lines are wrapped too tightly and hard to control. Those types will often catch anywhere and everywhere on a hog instead of the ear. They also miss a lot because they get overly excited and are out of control when they make contact. They lack the ability to think on their feet. If a bay breaks before they get there, they don't want to come back to you and are subject to catch a cow instead because they are going to do what they want to do and lack the ability to turn the "on" switch to "off" voluntarily. It isn't just the pits that do this. American bulldogs, Dogos, etc. all do it just not as often or to the same magnitude. I use pit/American cross. When crossed right you get the best of both worlds, both breeds have desirable and undesirable qualities. I like a big athletic dog that is level headed and thinks on its feet. One that wants to please and isn't going to make trouble for me in any way because they are going to do whatever they take a notion to do. I don't lead mine, they walk with me until I say go. They have the speed and agility to run a hog down in the open. The brains to grab it in the rear until it squats then let go and move to the ear where they have better control. A hog can split a herd of cattle and they never look sideways at a cow and continue on to the hog. After the hog is caught they sit back quietly and regain composure so they are ready to catch the next one. They aren't chewing leads, trees, grabbing at bay dogs that run past, screaming, barking, or turning flips. You are definitely right, breed selection and even line or family selection can make all the difference. Just because one will do it doesn't mean they're the right fit.

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perk
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby perk » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Mule sorry that’s your experience, I’d have to find better sources for check dogs lol, Becuase I promise they are out there, see them purchased yearly. that being Said unless buying a mans pack out you are always buying something he is Culling from his pack, your buying a cull for one reason or not her, some help some don’t.I’ve bought more broke dogs that didn’t work than ones that did.some dogs will do strange things when under new ownership. I bought a ‘broke’ gyp one time when I bought a guy out, got a guarantee on them, all 4 ran trash for me wish in a month. Got rid of 3 and kept best gyp bc of her breeding, still couldn’t trust her, put her in. Friends deer dog pack finally she wouldn’t run a deer, would leave race come back to truck he brought her back out fox hunting with us (he also kept fox dogs) for 2 years she wouldn’t run a deer, if pups started deer she come back to cast and tell on them, nice dog, he sold out, I BOUGHT her back 2nd trip that girl jumped and ran a deer on me. She never did it again, went back to being reliable but it was always strange I bought her as deer proof twice and both times she messed up, but I seen her leave large deer races as a deer hound, dogs do strange things under new ownership.
sorry to get off the original topic everyone, have enjoyed seeing yallls hounds
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Nolte
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Re: Kinda slow

Postby Nolte » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:30 pm

I think Perk has put a lot of good wisdom out there in his replies. Easiest way to get good broke dogs is start them on the right critters in good company. The hard part is if there isn't any good company so it's just repetition on tracks they can handle and to expect screw ups from time to time. And when those un broke dogs do stray on off game (and they will), then it's time they ride the lightning. Just try to get them back in desirable game the next go round. However there are some dogs who cant be broke but the best purpose for them is somebody who wants to run that game.

As for buying dogs, some old fellers on here way back had it right when they said buying dogs is an education. Just depends how much you want to pay for that education. You either better know the dog or the guy selling it. Otherwise buyer beware. Best avenues are usually guys who catch game and are getting out. But good dogs aren't cheap, but then again neither are $hitty ones from dog jockeys.

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