TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

[david]

[rockytrails]

A few years ago I was with a buddy elk hunting in AZ. We were sitting one evening listening for bugles when we heard a loud scream/growl not far from us. We looked at each other, heard it again. I guessed bull beef. He guessed maybe bull elk. We snuck towards it. A bobcat. I videos it a while but he had caught us and never made another sound. Not what I expected from that sound. Quite loud and throaty.

[rockytrails]

Checking traps once. Heard a lion scream. My first thought was lion but had never heard that before. Heard it a couple more times and finally spotted it walking under the cliffs.

[rockytrails]

Bobcat sounded nothing like the lion.

[mulehound]

I have been hunting an area where quotas are set high and never met. It is a predator removal unit. The population is replinished by lions from Colorado. Almost every lion that crosses into the state is removed every year. I brought this up at a regional advisory committee meeting. Utah is fine with it, they stated a population is a population even if it is transient.
I noticed five years ago that there are no scrapes ever. I have not seen one in all the time I have spent in the saddle. A young man and I caught a nice sized tom last year, followed him quite a ways. Not a scrape, he was collared and tagged in Colorado when he was a three year old then moved a long ways into utah.
When I hunt my old stomping grounds I Find scrapes. The population is not hunted out as much compared to where I live now.
I kind of think that they do not ever establish a home territory so never get around to marking it. Just my two cents.
Darrel

[Chris Todd]

This was a question that I thought a lot about this winter and am still trying to learn about as winter is pretty much over here. When the question was first asked I had several toms around me. And they all seemed to be heavy scrappers, marking their territories at will. Over the winter several of these toms have been taken by my self and others.
I know of three territories that have been taken over by younger toms. And all three are far less frequent scraping lions than the previous toms. That would leave me to believe that these new toms on the scene are younger animals.
I treed one tom in some country close to me here recently. I had taken a real large tom out of this area a few months ago. I hunted this young tom for a few weeks before getting him caught. The thing that really surprised me first was the few number of scratches. Then it was the fact that most of his scratches were in the same spots that the previous tom liked to scratch. The GandF aged this young tom at about 18to24 months old. Which sounded about right to me.
So this young tom had probably come through this country. Found no sign of a larger tom and was starting to set up shop. And I am sure as he got more confident he would have started scratching more. What surprises me is how fast the recruitment is in this area. So just guessing in areas with better lion populations. And I will guarantee you the country I am hunting right now does not have a real large lion population. But in areas with better populations the recruitment of young toms would be even faster. So if you are having a fast turn over of your tom lions that could be a lot of the reason for seeing fewer scratches.

[pegleg]

I thought the quick turn over was part of it. And it probably is. But I hunted in a area with a steady number of young toms and not many big toms due to hunting and they were scrapping more then what I would consider normal maybe just trying not to bump into each other. And in the area of Mexico I've been hunting it's still unusual to see a scrape with a large number of mature toms. Maybe its easier to overlook in some areas but there's still got to be something else affecting it.

[horshur]

Seems to me a Tom scratches more when he is coming into his own and a she is due to be in.
But older Toms don't scratch much if any I don't think they need to.
We always have more scratching after a large dominant Tom has been shot.
When a big Tom is around the young cats don't scratch as often they don't want to advertise.

[Rowdy Fitz]

Has anyone gotten around to putting trail cameras up on scrapes yet?

[Rowdy Fitz]

I caught one on video. Looks to me like they use their back feet. This cat’s track was only 3.5” wide. I’m not sure if it was a young tom or a female.

https://youtube.com/shorts/JUxnaR0Ok5c?feature=share

[mulehound]

I know this is a old thread but here goes. I lived in Moab for seven years. The area gets hunted hard hence no mature Toms. I caught two in seven years. One was collared in Montrose Colorado. I never saw a scrape one. I ride a lot of country mule back. I don’t believe a mature Tom was given a chance to establish a territory. Lion population was always drifting in from Colorado. Area biologists agreed. One of them also me that an ecosystem did not need Lions in it to be healthy.
I did see female bathroom piles here and there but very few. Utah is in a full scale war on lion populations right now.
Darrel

[Rowdy Fitz]

I’m finding quite a few here in NV. I always seem to miss the toms though. Keep finding females in my trees. lol
I’ve gotten videos of toms and females with kittens under the same scrape trees. Only the lone lions are scraping though. Haven’t been able to confirm if they’re toms or lone females. I keep missing them by two or more days.