Garmin Question for Steve White or Whoever can Awnser it

[doghunter]

I have the antenna but they have to put the correct connector on before i can try i expect them to have it ready to use this week.

ran this weekend 3 220's 10 collars, max range 1.2 miles with garmin roof mount antenna and about 800 yards with short antenna.

one of the 220'2 and 2 of the dc 30's was bran new.

as soon as I test it i will post if it helps.

They are just taking a long time to get it done.

I put a total of abut 16 hrs on the collars on dogs that were on the ground hunting this weekend.

[houndcrazy93]

Ok thanks. And yeah with my garmin with just the small antenna I get about 800 yds to but sometime I get about 1mile and a half. But that very rare

[Steve White]

Sorry guys have not logged into this site in some time. A friend brought this to my attention today. So figured I had to jump in finally. questions that need answering. Not sure where to start on them. So I will take the posts first. Although you science and math is sound. The logic is being applied to the wrong area. Take your link to Firestick. Check it again. Those are CB antennas. Sure you can adjust and tune them to match a frequency in theory. Yet a CB antenna that has the coil wound to match the 27 mhz band cannot just be cut down to match another frequency that easily. You are far better taking a 2M antenna then making adjustments.

There is some confusing posts made on the DC30 antenna. In a few spots it does appear to be talking about the collar. Others it looks like the handheld unit. So confusion aside let's talk about the antenna for the DC30. Like the antennas I have had made for me for the 220 unit. I have looked at having an antenna made for the collars. Well an into some problems with that with connectors. Really a cheap wire connector is not an option. Then got to thinking about it some more. decided that it was truly beating a dead horse. Since we are dealing with a signal being transmitted, not received. Increasing gain has no effect. The only way to increase the transmit distance would be to increase the line of sight. To do that then a longer antenna would be needed. That in itself poses a problem, and most folks would defeat the purpose of it. Rather than allow the antenna to stick up higher in the air to get beat up and caught on the brush. Most would wrap it around the collar through the buckle like most beep beep collars. Thus defeating the line of sight. Son an antenna change on the collar really is useless.

As for your questions from the first post.

1- Yes it is.

2- No.

3 Yes, but the tuning will be off for optimum performance. Unless you get one that can be tuned. Then the best way is to use an antenna analyzer, or swr meter. In the end you would be better off starting with a 2M as mount selections are better. Unless you need something that does not require a ground plane.

5- Yes, cut charts come with most antennas that are tunable.


You are right hound hunters are ingenuous. I have done a lot of testing on different antennas for best results. Really there has not been a whole lot of difference. There really is only a slight difference in antennas. The two biggest factors are the height they will give you and the gain they have on the receive. Most are around 3.5db's. So you are not going to see a big difference in brand x to brand y. Then there is the practicality. Sure the diamond 8ft 2m antenna is going to give me more line of sight over the 4ft 2m antenna. Most likely my mounting spot is not going to be the same. In most places we hunt an 8ft whip off the roof is not going to be a smart idea!!! So I put it on the bumper of my F250. In the end the height is within inches of the 4ft antenna on the roof.

Now since I use radios for communication during a hunt. I WILL NOT USE A MOUNTED ANTENNA!!!!!!!!! This keeps me from burning up units. In that 10% of the time I may need longer range I use the Portable long range antenna. Sitting in my truck hand out the window. The height become more than the mounted radio antenna. If I need more. Then I get my fat butt out of the truck, and crawl up on the box. top of the cab if I need to. Then my height is higher than an 8ft cumbersome whip. Thankfully I rarely need to do this. In fact did more of it when I used the beep beep stuff!!

I truly believe that the Garmin unit have made smarter hunters. Since it has really given an education to those that want it on how radios work. Although folks are learning. They do not want to listen very closely. There is no way to get around this line of site thing with land based communications. If there was then we would not have all these 300ft towers scattered around the country side. Not many water towers without an antenna on it. Fire,EMS, and Law enforcement all use radios around the same area. They all have towers with repeaters. Sure enough a LEO can talk from one end of the state to the other if needed. That is because they use the repeaters on the tower. In a large county like mine. A squad car transmits to as many as 2 towers before the signal hits dispatch. So if these folks need to use this stuff to communicate at a distance with a high powered radio. I do not understand how some believe a .2mw or 2W transmitter will work better. Some folks can talk about knife edge refraction all the want. It is just a fancy way of saying bounce. Nothing in physics allows for a signal to follow the curve of the earth. It bounces into the air. Ham guys know this. That is why they use objects like the moon to bounce signals for greater distances. Not practical when it comes to tracking hounds.

One day we will have all satellite tracking. Yet when that does come. Someone is still going to say their 40yrold blue box can track a dog further!

One last thing. I seen someone post about AES ham. I personally would not buy a thing from them. At least out of the Milwaukee store. They have been the most condescending people to deal with. Shipping rates are high, and pricing is not all that great. The 2 best places I have found have been Hamradio.com or ranl.com . I prefer R&L as they are a small mom pop type company. Would always rather give my money to someone like that than a huge chain.

I know this has been long, but I hope it has answered some questions. If not ask away, or feel free to call me.

[doghunter]

thanks for responding I knew you would have some input on this. I just need to find out how to get my unit to work the entire line of site. I am in flat ground. I even tested a bran new unit on lake kississmee and it still got about 2 miles.

I dont have alot of time to respond now so i will catch you a little latter but thanks again.

[Steve White]

DH- THAT'S EASY!!! A friend told me how to do that today!! GET TALLER DOGS!!!! Think about it this way. The average hound is going to have the collar antenna at about 1.5 ft off the ground. SO the mathematical formula for all things being perfect the line of sight on that collar is roughly 2.45 miles. THIS APPLIES TO ALL RADIO EQUIPMENT!!!! A transmitter with an antenna height of 1.5 ft is going to have that for a line of sight. At it's best!!!!!!!!! Now the line of site from the receiver has some play in it. So if your holding the unit in front of you. Say at 4ft high the line of sight then is 4 miles. The max distance at which the 2 line of sight circles cross is 6 miles. This is only if conditions are perfect!!!!! First from the transmitter the line of sight has to be clear enough for the signal to travel that far. Then has to be strong enough for it to be heard at the outer fringes of that circle. Then on the receiver side of it. This also applies. The quality of the components have to be such to be able to hear a faint signal.

Really when it comes to tracking. I have found it to be much like the old saying when it comes to radios. Your max distance is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. If any of you have played with CB's this is easy to understand. You have the big fancy radio. The big kicker, all the toys. Your buddy has just the cb combo kit from Kmart. He may be able to hear you at 20 miles, but if he is 10 miles away you can not hear him. So the max range you have is 10 miles to each other. Works the same with handhelds to truck radios. Best conditions a handheld may only get 2 miles back to the truck. Yet you can hear the truck at 5 miles on the handheld. So if you think about it that way. The best any collar is going to get on flat ground at 1.5ft is 2.45 miles. Can't talk handheld radio to handheld radio at 5miles on flat ground normally. Once in a while the stars align, and you can. Just not every day.

SO if you really want more range. Get taller dogs. Could also win the lottery, and build a pure satellite system. That all us average Joe's can afford!!

[doghunter]

i am still testing the antennas but it does appear to give better signal within the same range.

I have not been able to track any farther but the signal strengh is stronger within up to the point you loss signal. ( I am compairing them with the roof mount antenna by garmin)

I will know more when they are actally on dogs in the woods but it has been pushing 90 degrees around here.

Steve taller Dogs???? if just raising your antenna to ensure a line of site would make the garmins get the 7 miles they claim i can use a telescopeing antenna mount to make this happen. I have a fiberglass telescoping pole used to work on power lines that would work great. I also have a camp in the middle of 40,000 acres i hunt and could put a base in, I am in florida not to many hills where i hunt. i still dont beleive it would help enough. but i bet i try climbing a tree with the roof mount antenna because if it would work i could leave the dogs running and go to camp while knowing they are still safe. they could get alot more ground time.

[Steve White]

DH, Your are missing the point. The reason for the taller dogs is the line of site from just that part of the equation. You have 2 antenna's. One on the dog, and one on the unit. Each one has it's own line of sight radius. So even though you can increase the line of sight range of the reciever. Without a taller dog it is hard to increase the range on the collar. Unless of course the dog is on a hill. Remember the mathmatical formula for line of sight is 2X the square root of the height. This is rough but is close. There is also another way to look at it. Generally signals do not go past the distance to the horizon. That alone can be your range. Say the average collar sits on the dogs neck at 18". The distance to the horizon is the square root of 1.5 x height or 1.5 in this case. Which works out to 1.2 miles. Hmmmm, that sounds like a famialiar number!! Then to get the total possible in a perfect unobstructed world line of sight you add the horizon distance to the the HD of the antenna. Say you are holding the unit at 4ft. The HD is 2 miles. So the total possible LOS is 3.2 miles. Increase the height and in theory you increase the LOS. There are many things that wil affect that total distance. Hills, Atmoshpere, buildings, etc. Then there are other things that can help, or hurt. Reflection, refraction, etc,. We have all seen bounced signals. With the Garmin this is not a problem. So long as you recieve the signal all is good. With the beep beep stuff we have all chased bounced signals at one time. Anyone that has ever used a CB radio has heard bounced signals. It is called skip.

So before I get to much more complicated and start to confuse my self. Let me remind all that in dealing with this stuff. It is the weakest link of the chain you have to look at. No matter how strong the one end is, it depends on the other. In this case it is the colllar. Look at it from a truck radio to handheld standpoint. If you are 5 miles from each other. The guy on the handheld will hear the truck, but the truck cannot hear the handheld. Truck to truck at 5 miles no problem. Antenna heights are a little higher and there is more power going out. Still may be within the total LOS, but the signal strength at the outer edge is not strong enough to be heard from the handheld. In most cases a 5watt handheld cannot be heard at 5 miles. So I cannot see how a 2watt radio is going to be heard at 5 miles in most cases. Let alone a .2 milliwatt signal. Start making some changes in antenna lengths, heights, and gain. Things will change a little. Connect a 5watt handheld to your truck antenna range changes. Hook your TV up to a big antenna on the roof VS the rabbit ears, and you get more channels(or at least a clearer picture).

One last thing to remember for all. These rules of propagation apply to ALL RADIO SIGNALS!!!! Physics does not care if you have a Garmin, Marshall, Johnson, Wildlife, Icom, Yaesu, or even Radio Shack. They all use radio signals so all follow the same rules.

I hope this has helped everyone a little. My brain hurts now so I will end it here.

[doghunter]

ok once again my home test show a stronger siginal but no real increase in distance. I will be running the in the woods where i hunt and should be able to tell better if there is any increase in range.

Not Color Blind. Please tell us a little more about your yagi antenna and the difference it makes. That sounds like the next step to increase range.

My thoughts, a better antenna would help because you are not just receiving a signal you are receiving data in the signal that tells the 220 where to put the dog on the map page. So you not only need to be able to receive the signal you also need to get a enough of the data to update the position.

I wonder why the tiny loc users are claiming a longer tracking distance. They all have to be 2watt it is the law and i think steve would agree the dogs are the same height. both use murs. so what is the difference less data ???????

[not color blind]

doghunter, I PM'd you before I realized you posted this.

I originally just used my antenna from my F@L MNS100 (151 freq.) beep beep box. I just had to buy an adaptor to connect it to my Astro.

I recently bought a "smaller" yagi/wand antenna that is tuned for 149-155 MHz.

I get AT LEAST double the range over Garmins other "long range" antenna's. Common sense (which I do have, albeit in very small amounts ) should tell us that a directional antenna (when pointed in the right direction) should work alot better than a non-directional antenna.

Hope this helps someone,
Randy

The Garmin is the best product out there when everything is working properly. THE BIGGEST PIECE OF $HIT when they're not.

[Steve White]

NCB- You are right about the Yagi in theory. As long as you know the direction it can perform better on the designed frequency. If you do not know the direction it can be a little more difficult. Especially if you have the signal set to send every 30 secs. What I have found when testing my 151 yagi. Is that they do not perform worth a darn on 154. So you would need to be using ID 30 or under for them to work well.

All I ever used was the 151 beep beep stuff. It was just what every else had when I started hunting with folks that had the beep beep stuff. Did not realize at the time that they normally had the longest range of the beep beep stuff. So always stayed with it. Even though it caused some tracking problems when hunting with others, and a few burned up tracking units. Still remember Tracker Radio corp calling and asking what I had done to the unit when sent in for repair. Did not tell them that the area I was hunting had a bunch of guys transmitting on the 151 band. Was real nice to hear them come over my tracker and wipe out the dogs signal.

[doghunter]

Ok i put about 15 hrs on the new antenna in the woods. I think they do help but dont make a huge difference over the garmin roof mount. (not worth the money).

It increased my distance about 2 thenths of a mile and the siginal did not drop as much. I compared the new antenna on the hood and the Garmin on the roof so they would be the same height.

You know Garmin has alot of high paid engineers on staff that should be able to awnser these questions but they wont talk to you. and if they would just keep us updated of let us know what is going on it would help.

I did not have time to climb a tree and see if that would work but I will when i have time.

Max range this weekend just under 2 miles about 1.8

I am now checking a price on a Yagi anyone have any good places to buy one.

I am also going to look into the antenna tman308 was talking about.

I am ok if i can keep around 2 miles o the roof mount but if one gets out of pocket i need something thet will reach out.

[not color blind]

doghunter, midwaytelemetry.com is where I got my newest 149-155 frequency yagi (it's under the ATS compatable tracking equipment). It is a high gain antenna that only has 2 elements that fold out per side. It is quite a bit smaller than the traditional 3 element yagi.

[idahoutlaw]

you guys are on the right track the antenna for garmins need to be around 3 feet half wave works fine full wave alittle better but not worth it but you over looking a few items number one is the antenna mount needs a good ground not just a screw in the fender or roof but clean metel to metal or a seprate wire from ground to frame of truck also adding a wire from truck body to frame and bed to frame radio shack sells ground straps for this. the second thing is the feed line for the antenna its part of the antenna as well if you have a half wave antenna and 10 feet of feed line thats 13 feets of antenna witch is over two wave lengths so the best thing is to use 9 feet of feed line to make it right. its best is to keep every thing in to quarters or halfs by doing those two things you can make big improvments. also fiberglass antenna receiver better then metal ones, but metal broadcast better also when looking for antennas you will see short ones with a coil if you take that coil apart you will find a lenght of wire if you could stretch it out you would find that it will mesure out to be an half wave or full wave in lenght haveing it all coiled up works but not well.

[idahoutlaw]

sorry if i'm confusing everyone i.m trying not to get technical about this stuff one thing you can do that would realy help is find your local ham radio club their all over they will be more than happy to show you and help they will also have equipment to take measurements that they can ajust your antennas with you might even learn and want to get your own ham ticket if you have any ? about radio and antennas or like a more detailed explanations of help pm me i dont know every thing but have been into this stuff for many years and know many fine ham operators that would have the ansewers

kf7ATI

[Steve White]

Finally someone else to go over things and confuse the heck out of people. At least I am not alone now!