What breed for cats????

nodge · Post by **nodge** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:57 pm

What breed would you say best suits the needs of hunting and treeing lions and bobcats?I know this is a ford or chevy question but I would really appriciate your input. I am looking into getting a couple of black and tan pups to work but I am a rookie and need a little guidence. I live in the Bitterroot Valley in MT. This is very steep terain with a fair amount of snow through the cat season. .So can you help me with some thoughts to help me know what I need as far as a breed and what characterists I would look for within that breed for a good dog?
Thanks John
PS what is a " cold nose dog "?

nmplott · Post by **nmplott** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:43 am

a cold nose dog is a dog that can take an old track and run with it with great success. As to how old the track is can be debated by some. I prefer to run Plotts on cats. I like everything about them. My wife got me a bluetick pup and he seems to be doing right....you are right about the ford chevy question. My advise to you is get a trained dog to use first. And if you do get a pup hunt with the parents before anything becomes official.

twist · Post by **twist** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:53 am

I would not personally mess with b/t for bobcats look around for someone in your area that has walkers or walker cross hounds you well be glad you did I am not saying there isnt good b/t cat hounds but they are few and far between. There are some blue tic hounds around your area that in my opinion, not worth much steer away from them. Try and buy an older proven cat hound to start with rather than young untrianed hounds. hope this helps

mixed bunch · Post by **mixed bunch** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:23 am

You know it all boils down to personal preferencce. what are you wanting? i have a B/T and i Love the way he is turning out but to be honest with you it took him awhile he is a 1 1/2 now and coming on stong so you have to be patient with B/T but he runns evrything and even in heavy snow. but like Twist says if you want fast and quick results you probally will want to get a walker, but right now there is not a walker that i would trade for my B/T but that is my personal option and my hunting style. good luck

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:10 pm

a good cat dog is not a certain breed, by this i mean a real cat hound is something very very rare. after 40 + yrs. of cat hunting.. i have seen real cat dogs in every breed.. there is a strain of cat dogs bred in ok. over the years that produced good to great bobcat dogs cole is the guys name but i dont know how to contact or know if they still breed them..slash ranch, nance, lee brothers, marsaoske, topper, were very good lines of the past....

Mike Leonard · Post by **Mike Leonard** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:04 pm

I agree it is very hard to just pick a breed and say they are best for cats. We are not talking lions we are talking bobcats here.I think you may be getting closer if you choose a strain within a certain breed or cross that has produced a lot of dogs that could consistantly trail up and tree bobcats. I have tried them all and all I can say is real bobcat dogs are still scarce as hen's teeth, and if you find one you better guard it like the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Here is an interesting scenario that may illustrate my point a bit better. I was out hunting yesterday. I had six hounds with me. Way too many for bobcat but I had a man with me that was wanting a big lion and so we put in a few more dogs expecting to run lions and six is ok on lions in this country. Three of these dogs are pretty expereinced lion , bear dogs and have been on some cats. One is a bit younger and has done well on bear and fresh lion trails, and the other two are about a year and a half olds that have been on some trainers, a few bears and a couple of lion trails. Well we ended up in a hot bed of bobcats and we decided to catch a few for kicks...LOL! I am laughing because that is tongue in cheek humor( cats are always tuff and a lot tougher than lions most of the time. Well I start on track with with Sassy a 5 year old walker bitch and Blue and English blue crossed up hound I raised. Well they took it but it was a little cold and they were really having to pound on it to move it. Well Sassy heard some of the dogs in the box bark and gave up on it and came back. I told my friend must not be very good load her up. Well old Blue just kept pounding on it and before long he had it up and going pretty good. Well I made a mistake and unloaded the two young Nance walker males and headed towards him. He was working along a north slope that had some old snow on it, and I could see that cat track and it looked better now. I let the pups go, and they went to him, messed him up of coarse(stupid me), but he got it lined out anyway and kept it going and one of the pups was locked onto it with him and they just kept pounding and I was pretty impressed with the one pup. The other pup tried to drift it but couldn't it wasn't good enough yet, and then he heard the dogs in the box and quit and went to them. Well I go back to the truck to get my radios and such and just as I got about to it. A cat darted out of the brush and ran across the road in front off me. DTFB! ( Next mistake) but away go four of them on this cat. Well they made a big circle and it was like a jump race and the two younger dogs were out in front I could tell. Boom all of a sudden it just exploded. I thought they had caught the cat on the ground to start with, but oh no. They had run right into a big bunch of deer with a big old post rut buck all stinky and ripe to run. Cat race goes down the drain , and deer race is on! Well I have two mile Trashbreakers on all of them so I get it shut down pretty quick and get them gathered but it screwed up that hot cat track. Well I figured Blue and Toby the other pup would hear the commotion and quit their cold trailing and come on, but they didn't/ Two hours later I caught up with them still pounding that track and moving it. They got the cat jumped about the time I got to them and drove him hard, but unfortunatly he went in a crack behind a big sanstone boulder rather than up a tree. We couldn't dig him out but I was very proud of those two dogs who went on inspite of my mistakes. Now my point is that some dogs seem to be so cat minded that very little will distrupt them once they lock onto a cat's scent and this is a very important trait because just about everything out there in the woods puts off more scent than a bobcat. A dog must be very cat minded to ever really make the grade as a true cat dog. Some people say it is hogwash saying that some dogs are just naturally more cat minded than other. It's all in exposure they say. Well I disagree and I know a lot of bobcat hunters that will agree with me on this. Not every coon dog, bear dog, lion dog or even good deer runner will make a cat dog. CAT DOGS ARE WHERE YOU FIND THEM!

az_gogetem · Post by **az_gogetem** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:36 pm

cat dogs come in all breeds. Best bobcat dog i've ever seen was out of an accidental cross between a duncan blackntan and a old nance walker. since your in montana if i was you i would get a hold of spanky .

as for a a cold nosed dog. a cold nosed dog can smell an older (colder) track. it usually takes a cold nosed dog to run bobs because they leave so much less scent than other creatures like bears coons and lions.

nodge · Post by **nodge** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 pm

You guys make this sound impossible to get into...I appreciate your wisdom and experience. So where do I go from here? I dont want to give up without even trying so do you guys know anybody that has an older dog that runs cats that they want to get rid of? HA HA HA HA. I know I know funny huh? What about a breeder that has had good success runnig cats with there dogs orrrrrrrrr I dont know .......I am at a loss. So what I hear you saying is that finding a good lion hound isnt that hard but weather or not that same dog will run a bobcat is something else all together and that I need to juust start with an older dog and the mabe later run some pups with it and only the dog will show me if it will run bobcats..... Anyway any other help would be a ton of help thanks!
Thanks John
PS Who is Spanky?

Spanky · Post by **Spanky** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:51 pm

PS Who is Spanky?

That would be me John :lol:

What everyone is trying to say is simple. There is no one superior breed or bloodline out there that does it all everytime. You need to get out there with some guys in your area and go for a hunt first and see if hound hunting is what you really want to get into also it will give you the ability to see different breeds in action. Have you been out yet with anyone? How old are you?

I have seen excellent cougar and bobcat hounds in all 6 hound breeds and several different curs. I run mostly walkers with 2 black and tans. I have a very good friend that only runs all black and rans and he puts up as many bobs as anyone I know.

The biggest thing you need to except is hound are not a hobbie, they are a way of life and a huge responsibilty. You owe it to a hound to spend as much time hunting and training as possible. It may seem all glorious and cool at first but it is not a novelty. Give me a call I live up north about 2 hours from Missoula.

nmplott · Post by **nmplott** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:30 am

Do not give up so soon. Sometimes you can find outfitters who are selling out or sometime selling older dogs that don't have the speed of the younger dogs they run with. A good bobcat dog whether old or young will cost $$. But will save a lot of grief.

nodge · Post by **nodge** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:08 am

Oh I am far from giving up!!! I am 28 yrs old and yes I have been out a bunch with a guy that lives about two hours away and I only go out with him when he is in town and brings his dogs which isnt very often and I have had the desire and want to for a long time. So finally I am trying to do the research and ground work before I make this investment into giving a hound a place to call home. He runs curs and we went out last weekend and treed a small female and I always have the time of my life!!! The problem is that I have no direct contacts with anyone from the close area. I am always out in the early morning running my trap lines and always see one or two houndsmen out trying to cut a track so I guess I could flag one or two of them down and see if they are open to help or not. What would any of you think if some guy did that to you? Seems like most the time they are pretty secluded and dont wanty to talk but I wuill give a shot.
Thanks John

az_gogetem · Post by **az_gogetem** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:46 am

It can be done either way. If you want to start with a pup look for something around 8 months so you can start training right away instead of an 8 or 12 week old pup that you have to feed for 6 month before you can do anything with.

something like this for example.
viewtopic.php?t=1586

then either run him on drags and trainers with only bobcat or lion scent ( use less and less scent each time they are successful is a pretty good way to get a dog going on bobs in my opinion) untill you feel he/she is ready and take them hunting you can learn a lot more about a dogs abilities by watching that dog than you will ever learn by someone else flapping their gums.

OR get a young dog and find someone like spanky who has older experienced cat dogs and go hunt with him. dogs seem to learn faster from other dogs than they do on their own. kinda like humans, go figure.

OR go buy a broke dog that consistently catches its own cats and build around it.

it can be done.....no matter which way you choose to do it.

i would say those options are in order from hardest to easiest, which happens to be the same order as cheapest to most expensive and probably the same order from longest to shortest as to how long it will take to be successful.

the message i believe everyone is trying to send is it's not just a simple process where you can go out buy a certain breed of dog, camerons for example, go out and expect him to catch a cat.

glad to hear you are not losing hope, flag one of those guys down and hunt with them if they'll let you, if i was you i'd hunt with them a few times and see what type of dogs they've got before i brought a pup along. run a pup with some trashy buggers and you're bound to do more harm than good.

Spanky · Post by **Spanky** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:56 am

Diddo everything above.......

Whatever you do don't get hung up in anyones hype. Hunt with a bunch of hounds before you make your final decisions. Different breeds have different styles, find the one your most comfortable with.

Once you have an idea if you choose to buy a pup go hunt with the parents. Titles on the parents are fine but that should not be your deciding factor in picking your pup, Consistency is what you want to look for :wink:

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:35 am

Anybody that tells you they have the silver bullet of cat dogs either doesn't know what they are talking about or they have a dog to sell. :wink:

As was mentioned, cat dogs are where you find them. The best cat dog I ever seen was a B&T and a close second was probably a plott. But I've also seen walkers, blueticks, and redbones that could more than hold their own and would be a welcome addition to my kennel anytime. Some dogs just seem to excell at cats.........and I haven't found breed to be a reliable predictor.

p.s., loved the story Mike........sometimes dogs succeed despite our best efforts to screw them up.

HoundDawg · Post by **HoundDawg** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:05 pm

I would just add this... you asked what a cold nosed dog is.

You'll know your dog has a cold nose when you let him out of the box and all the other dogs around immediately sit down.

Then you'll know that is one cold nosed SOB.