Spin off of the "how much more is there" topic

[Hunter]

I have read the "how much more is there" thread and didn't want to hi jack it so I am starting another one similar to it.
I have layed in bed at night trying to deside how to breed my dogs. The best to the best is always what I've been told. But, sometimes it's just not that simple. I was raised on a farm. We done A.I. (artifical insemination for those that don't know) and when we bred we bred for select genetics. It was fairly easy to see flaws in a cow or bull and breed so that those flaws would hopefully be corrected in the calf. Alot of times it worked and others it didn't. We kept a log of the cows (we used about 5 different bulls semin but, didn't own them) and at breeding time we had her points scale to see where she was. If she scored say 50% in one area (calving ease for instance) we would try to get a bull that was 75% or greater in that area. When it was all tallied up we matched her with a bull that had close to or greater than her OVER ALL score. When we started out we had cows at (off the top of my head) around 65-70% over all score. After only 2 generations we were averaging scores of over 85% and acouple in 90%. That's pretty damn good. But, we had good repersentaion and knowledge of what a 100% over all scored cow should look like.
The only way this works in being totally honest with the score. This is easy to do with cattle because....it's only a cow. They are born to be burgers or steaks. Our hounds however are our family, friends and pets. We don't want to be critical of our "favorites" because we KNOW they will pull out of that not treeing good stage when they turn 2. You can't tell me that none of you haven't had your "favorites" that you put more time than you should that just never panned out. So lets say we start a score card on our new pup and are brutally honest about it. Where do we find that 100% scored dog? Is it the Grand of all grand nite champion dog? Is it your buddies bear or cat hound that's dependable as the day is long? Or is it your imaginary standard that you make up for what would be your perfect hound? I know what I want but, without someone else doing the same honest accessment of theirs how do I go outside and breed to a dog who might throw hard headed or shy pups but, trees like no other and has awesome feet? I guess what I'm getting at is "is there more to it" that we can do than just breeding the best to the best. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has thought of this and can help me out. Hell maybe ya'll are even doing this now and I'm just now catching on.

Thanks Hunter

[Unreal_tk]

UThree traits I would say would be no fighters and early starts and amount of culls in your litters. Just to be simple about it. I'd think that's what I'd look for to start off. Then a lot of other things are geographic too are you in hills or flat ground snow or dry etc so you want to think traits. There are a lot of those out there.

Also your size of dog could vary for terrain too. We have better luck in our canyons with smaller dogs. But winter comes and the big dogs take over in the deep snow (this is just our experience not everyone's)

[liontracker]

To the best of my knowledge, a uniform, numbered grading system has never been used in the US. However that is the system used in France with great success. Maybe some day it will catch on here, but I doubt it, considering hound dog politics, such as they are.

[R.M.]

I guess what I'm getting at is "is there more to it" that we can do than just breeding the best to the best.

You're right on there! I think most "good breeders" will tell you there is more to it that simply breeding the best to the best. Just like your cows, you didn't just use the ONE best bull. You used five bulls, based on their specific traits and how they would complement the cow, AND the biggest thing, how the calf would come out better than both the cow and bull!

[houndnem]

Although I do have i 1 dog that I think would score very high on that, I think that hounds are a pack animal. you have ones that will do it all, but more commonly you have one of each and they run as a team and get it done. if we did manage to start getting a high percentage of 100% dogs, I think you would see guys that run 6 or more dog start to run 2 or 3. I think that alot of these breeds we have are already there, it is what you show them, how you train them, and their overall life lessons that will push them higher on the score chart. but there definately some (just like human atheletes) that are just naturals at it and don't need much teachin.
My lead dog is named "Hook". I don't know how to score a hound, but she has every desirable trait I would ever want in a hound. Doesn't matter which one of my pups I put in that # 2 spot by her side, by the end of the season they are always outshining the rest of the pack. every dog I own is either a pup from Hook or a pup of a pup. I guess my point (if I really have one) is that these dogs of mine are all line bred with the same qualities. the one that gets dumped out with hook the most will be the best at the end of the season and the one that gets dumped in a while after they get going will not have as many of his good qualities exposed.

[Hunter]

I agree Houndnem. There are just flat out natural athelets just like in humans. I know brothers where one is 100 lbs over weight and can hardly walk to the dinner table and the other is lean and trim and can cover ground like theirs a fire to put out. You can get that but, it's not always the norm. I don't want to make it a fine science to breed dogs. I'm just talking about setting down and taking the time to record simple little things about all your dogs. Something as simple as how your pup eats. Is it growly or timid around the feed bowl? If you have a record of how all your pups act you can go back when the dog is grown and compare to see if these signs where there as a pup. I mean we all know an aggressive pup at the feed bowl will make an aggressive dog later in life. (obvious over aggression as a pup aside) But, does it really? Where the evidence? Do you remember 3 years ago that pup whooped the heck out of his litter mates? If you recorded it you might find out different.
My main question is still where do we find our 100% scored dog. There is no real standard to measure by. We have dog (talent) shows on T.V. that show us what a breed standard SHOULD look like. They serve a purpose. I guess if nothing more than a bunch of rich people that don't want PETA on their asses just like us. They will actually help US HOUNDSMEN keep our dogs. We have field trials (for coon mostly) that tell us if we have a dog that can tree 1000 barks a minute and isn't a slick tree'er. It doesn't tell us if he's a gator dog or how many times they had to run the batterys on the tri tronics dead breaking him off a deer. We can take our dogs to the bear bay and see if he pisses straight up at the mear sight of a bear. So what if he will jump on a bears back and ride him to the ground all while biting on his ear and yelling "yehaw". Will he actually go hunt or do you lead him into all your bear bays OR does he do that to any strange dog that hunts with you? I'm not knocking any of these things. I like the bear bay and field trials. I just don't compete or feel your getting a true repersentation of what the dog can do. In some cases your may be getting a fair repersentation and it's not always a good thing either. Like how some field trial dogs will fight at the tree to keep your dog from treeing with it. Saw it and didn't like it. Guy said "that's just the name of the game now". Not for the pleasure hunter it's not. I am rambling and I guess asking a question that can't really be answered.

[pegleg]

write a standard, build a organization to support it, then vote on a process to test for breeding success and performance. see if you can be organized and use whats out there in a reasonable way to help stabilize the types of hounds that perform their jobs best. short of that decide on what traits are most important to you and spend the time and effort to track down hunters with similar goals and work towards the ideal on your own

[Hunter]

Peg Leg

That was pretty much straight to the point. Thanks.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

This is interesting as these comp hunts can be beneficial in some way but do not beat getting your dogs in the woods. For example. I had a fellow houndsmen come hunting with me this spring. One of the dogs had never been on bear before. This dog was on the first three bear, the third bear was a big walking boar, this dog was baying no closer then 30 yards from the bear. We left him at home for a couple days let come back and try again, the same deal, could not start a track on his own and stayed way back on a bay up. This dog after returning to the states competed in a bear drag comp and won the whole thing beating out a few of the state hunters best dogs. I would have had a tough time feeding this dog but he looked like a rock star in to alot of people. Everybody would have judged him different, if you saw uim hunting with my dogs you would cull him, put him on a drag and he looked like a champ getting to the tree 200 yards ahead of the next hound. Go figure???