Heart, desire and grit

[dwalton]

Heart, desire and grit what are these thing and where do they come into play to make a great cat dog. Is heart, desire and grit the same thing or not. Dewey

[Mountainhound]

My definition only others probably have thier own. Grit is the willingness to go toe to toe with whatever they are hunting. Desire is is that drive we all look for in our hounds to hunt. Heart is my favorite quility, it give's man or beast that never say die attitude, bloody broken but just wont quit I will win!!!!

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Dewey,

Lets hear your definitions first. Then it will be easier to opine.

All three are vital, by whatever name used, as traits neccasary in large doses in a GOOD Bobcat Hound.

Just do not forget that all of the above are WORTHESS without the BRAINS to know when and how to use them!

CJC
PS
Mountainhound pretty much nailed our feelings as to definitions while I was typing.

[houndnem]

My definition only others probably have thier own. Grit is the willingness to go toe to toe with whatever they are hunting. Desire is is that drive we all look for in our hounds to hunt. Heart is my favorite quility, it give's man or beast that never say die attitude, bloody broken but just wont quit I will win!!!!

that pretty much nailed it!

[George Streepy]

I think Mountainhound did a pretty good job explaining it. The other part of the question is when do they come into play. For a bobcat dog Heart and Desire out way the grit hands down if you ask me. Not being a bear or hog hunter grit hasn't been that important to me. When watching a dog full of desire putting all it has out there to get that critter caught has always brought a smile to my face.

[dwalton]

Heart is go when every one else has gave up, desire is wanting that game or the desire to do right,to please. Grit is wanting part of that animal, it gives the tree in a lot of dogs. It is the least needed and the most abused. People breed aggression into dogs thinking they are breeding grit [only my opinion]. Brains is a given. The most important. As some of you may have seen already I am building the cat dog, what it takes to make a top cat dog. Then comes the question how do we breed for the top cat dog?.... Good post guys. I think we have a good idea what it takes. How do we get there ?Dewey

[LarryBeggs]

Hunt what we have enough to know if it is what we want.Alot or dogs never reach there potential for lack or hunting.When a dog is consistantly catching cat on its own.Then hunt with someone else that is catching game to see if what we have is as good as we think it is.If it isnt then try to buy a pup from the other guy and start over again.Breed the best dogs that we have available .Trying to add what is missing in your dogs as you go.Try to breed to a dog you have seen hunt in your area or at least to a dog someone you know has seen hunt.

[cobalt]

To me and for me;
Heart= strength and endurance of mind and body
Desire= appetite for the game you're after
Grit= indomitable spirit, fight till the end
Not necessarily the same thing.
With cat dogs it is my opinion that desire is most important because focus and smarts is primary.
Next would be heart because keeping the pressure on is vital on tough cats.
Lastly is grit because it never has been a major factor in what I look for in a good cat dog.

[twist]

I have come to find heart and desire come hand and hand if a dog has one he or she ussually has the other as they are so close to the same thing in my eyes when it comes to grit that is a must too but my defination of grit compared to others is probably different as to me grit is not knock down drag out fight to the end it is wanting to eat the cat once it is treed. When a person looks at all three of these qualities they are all somehow in my opinion linked to each other and when really thinking about it are all one and the same. Alot of hound have all three of these qualities but that doesnt make them great cat dogs I have seen hard core trash runners with all of the above. Like I have said many times before great cat dogs are born and once a person finds that hound and if directed in the right direction the out come is great.

[david]

I guess this has been said enough, but, Hunting bobcats where the majority would rather climb a tree than to die is so much different than hunting bobcats where the majority would rather die than to climb a tree. Seeing both sure make for a lot of thinking and trying to figure out stuff. But I have seen that in an area where the bobcats would rather die than to climb, the intense desire to engage the animal, however painful that might be, must be present in one of the dogs in the pack. And, this desire must be strong enough that it does not diminish after some negative experiences.
The problem being: my favorite and most gifted bobcat dogs have a mind that resembles that of a human being. Most human beings will not singlehandedly fight dangerous game nearing their own size more than about once. It hurts. There are intellegent human beings that will regularly fight because they enjoy the exhillerating effect, even though they may be severely wounded. It is not very many intellegent people that do this though. And I think the breeding challenge for the bobcat dog is to find the extreme intellegence coupled with the stupidity/desire for exhileration of facing claws and fangs alone.

the desire must be intense and block out all logic. Not that easy to find with extreme intellegence, in my experience. I know it is out there though. Like to hear from those that have it.

[dwalton]

Grit is a good thing. I owned a female cat dog that would go into a 12 inch culvert and kill a bobcat face on. She was a lay back easy going dog. My dogs will kill a cat on the ground in minutes. I feel people have a hard time distinguishing grit from aggression in dogs. I have seen to many dog fights in my time. It is a fine line or maybe two totally different things? Dewey

[curtj]

Grit is a good thing. I owned a female cat dog that would go into a 12 inch culvert and kill a bobcat face on. She was a lay back easy going dog. My dogs will kill a cat on the ground in minutes. I feel people have a hard time distinguishing grit from aggression in dogs. I have seen to many dog fights in my time. It is a fine line or maybe two totally different things? Dewey

I'm guessing you already know the answer to that question. I want to see one that is willing to hunt off the rig day and night sometimes for days, with only a few hours a night for rest and be willing to hunt through wind, rain or snow, and not want to lay down on the box. The same dog better be able to start a track and put his heart into after several cat races and not want to get in the box. It better handle like dream, but that's my resposibility to make it that way. It best stayed treed till I get there, it's my job to make every tree. In my opinion you better do your job and get to them if you expect this. I'd rather they bayed the cat on the ground instead of end them. If your restricted to where you hunt, then they can get thined out. My goal is when I go to the woods my young dogs smell cats every time. Not only does the smell get imprinted into there brain, but it keeps them on what you want, not junk. I guess what I'm saying is the hunter has got to have same traits as the dog, and not expect more that the effort he is willing to put out.

[david]

[ I'd rather they bayed the cat on the ground instead of end them.

That is the most delicate balance. It is what I want also, and it is so hard to get. I beleive it can be accomplished though by pairing dogs correctly. I wish there was just a line of dogs a guy could have and they would be like this: willing to close that final gap, and stop that cat from moving, and then bay it in such a way that it can not slip away. [And it is a mystery how these cats can slip out when bayed, but they do it all the time.] Then, to have the dogs that will hold bayed tight but never kill.

This whole question of grit and heart and desire is extremely complicated if you ask me. My all time favorite dog, and most effective bobcat catcher I have myself witnessed, lacked in all three of them by the standards of most. Brett Favre never shows up for training camp. He doesnt need to. She never would have showed up for training camp either, and she doesnt need to. She could catch a higher percentage of bobcats than any dog I had known, yet she lacked grit, and desire by bear dog standards, or by bear dog type standards applied to bobcat dogs.

I have heard Rush Limbaugh say "and with half my brain tied behind my back, just to make it fair". My search is for dogs that are so mentally and physically gifted that they will out perform most 100% grit, heart, desire type dogs, with what looks like very little effort.
I love to see grit heart and desire as much as the next guy. It makes me smile as much as the next guy. I will gladly hunt dogs that show it. But What really gets me going is something else.

About 25 years ago, I stood in a mans dog yard near Forks, WA. The man's name was Tom. Tom was a bobcat hunter. Many of you know him. Tom said to me "it's just like coon hunting when you have the right dogs". It was about eighteen or twenty years before I would see it. But I have seen it, and Tom was right. To those of you that have seen it, I ask you: was it a blessing or a curse Life might be easier if I had never seen it.

Speaking of coon hunting, how many of you have hunted with what was considered a top top coon dog? I have hunted with quite a few of them. What is so odd is that very few of them were ever catching raccoon on the ground. Why? I guess raccoons are too tricky and fast to get caught on the ground by a 50 pound descendant of the fox hound. Right? Well, I can run down a racoon myself and have done it. So why do they not catch them on the ground more often? In my opinion, it is for the same reason that hounds used on bobcat do not catch bobcats on the ground more often.

[dwalton]

Good post guys. I agree it takes a hard, good hunter to make that cat dog into a top dog. Everyone wants that top cat dog there few out there, for me it is the combination of dogs that work together to make it. Where one lacks another one picks up. I run 8 to 12 dogs on a track counting pups. None of then are perfect but as a group that catch a lot of cats. David :Tom lives in Florance, or he is still one of the top cat hunters that has ever been to the woods. Dewey

[George Streepy]

Dewey asked:
How do we breed for the top cat dog?.... How do we get there?

I believe I can tell the difference between a dog that is worth breeding, and one that isn't. With a couple dogs I have owned I felt it a crime to not try to advance their ability into offspring for the coming years. I have asked the question to many people about what they look for in determining what crosses to make. Most of the answers are vague at best and lack any type of confidence. "The best to the best," is commonly said. I realize you can breed two good tree dogs, and hope that their off spring are tree dogs. We all know that isn't always the result. Is there more to it? Is that as calculating of an answer that I can expect? I know there are a lot of variables in everything, but when breeding for a top cat dog, what are some of the things you guys look for?

Dewey,
I can start another topic if you like. But I have been waiting anxiously for this topic to dive into the breeding questions you brought up.

I obviously have no idea. My breeding program is, breed the best dog I have to the best one I can find. Then cross your fingers and hope.