Humane Society spies at a South Carolina Training

[Ankle Express]

Damn men think before you speak. Don't always show you struggling to hold your head up in the shallow end of the gene pool on here. And never believe anything YOU HEAR and very little of what you see. You must be closed up in a dang box out there somewhere to not recognize bleeding heart (HSUS) liberal propaganda when you hear it. Bears are not de-clawed nor de-toothed. They are fully intact. These are pets. These are ALL legaly kept as well. Permits issued. These bears are orphans or whatever and some even the offspring of such bears. No more permits will ever be issued. No more offspring. Due to pressure a few years back. So its dying like it or not. They don't question these bears captivity really. Nor are they running them down for the care or facilities provided these bears. Why? They taken very good care of better than most livestock and pets around this country. They trained up right and cared for deeply by their owners just like any other pet. No contact can be made. No catch dogs allowed, period. That stands any where you go. Break it and you leave. These bears will load and unload themselves to and from their haulers and toa nd from their kennels. The rope is required by the state that they be penned and restrained. Just like a leash law in town. Otherwise these bears waltz right in the pen on their own right beside their owner and assume their position in the corner. They will not leave that corner. Back their butt right up to it. Between rounds they rest, play and relax. Three dogs, one mintute of baying. About five minutes between rounds. You can pet the bear sometimes and the owner always does which they didn't show either between rounds. Typically the bear will get a treat as well like a peppermint candy and a five gallon bucket of water to drink that usually just gets played with about every other round. You'll never put your experienced dogs on a more educated bear anywhere. I can guarantee you that and they will keep even the best honest. They won't get bit. They can read a dogs mind and change it for him in a heart beat. Just like a fighter they also read the body language and quell any lunging or healing again before it can begin. Its just a bay up. Great gut check for young dogs and also gives them their respect for their elders right off if started that way. Not to mention the dogs that gain that oh so important respect that keeps their first real bear experiences from being vet bills or career ending experiences. I've seen both there pups that got stood back and pups that got to stick their nose to the bears nose and get away with it. These bears are as gentle as needed and rough enough to defend all at the same time. In our area with no roads, you'd be two years to have this kind of experience with a pup without breaking the law. This is done every Saturday morning, on a private basis (you and your dogs) across the state as long as the hunting is not open and its not to hot or raining bad. The events are just a few Saturdays in the spring and all sanctioned by somebody like the various bear hunters assoc.'s, APA and so on. Its a field trial with night hunts and bench shows and cotton candy for the youngsters. Family events. No drinking. No drugs. No catching or catch dogs. No cameras. No video cameras. You don't do any different and if we go to throwing stones probably worse when using trainers or roll cages or what have you at your own home for your own dogs. This is respectable and part of our heritage as bear hunters. This is where bear hunting came from and these folks know a little something about it and could use your support. For the record they are the only people hiding here. I'm damn proud of what I do and where it came from. The events were a way to educate the public as well at one point, but its obvious thats not working anymore. Can't fix stupid I don't reckon. JMO

[mdufresne]

Thank goodness someone (ankle express) has enough sense to see this for what it is. I have been multiple times and enjoy the trip every spring. I have watched these bears lick the face of their owner between rounds and stand up placing their front feet on the mans shoulders to have a treat from his pocket. This is not cruel and the bears live the good life. ANY OF YOU BOYS LOVE THE RODEO AND BRONC OR BULL RIDING? Hell there isn't a bit of difference in the two. Not all of us have generous training seasons and can run all the time.....in fact the seasons are so short that the majority of the time we can't hunt our hounds on the real deal. You can bet if I could go hunting I wouldn't have time for these trips because i would be in the woods with my dogs.

As for a real hunter believing the propaganda that these bears are declawed and defanged....horseshit! You might as well go to slaughter with the sheep if you believe what they spew.

Backpaws I mean no disrespect but have you ever trapped a coon to show some pups or let them chase a barn cat to let them get started? If not my appolagies but if you ever have then don't condem people that are doing no different.

PLEASE SEE THIS FOR WHAT IT IS AND DON'T SPLIT OUR RANKS . We have just started having some success fighting the antis by working together and now is not the time to stop. Do you think all they want is bear bays? Rodeos, hunting, farming, even simple pet ownership is what they mean to stop. For the record I have never entered a dog during the show but I have shown pups a bear during a bay and it has helped to show what young dogs have got for guts. I don't think it proves if a dog is a real bear dog at all but it helps. If I have five pups that are five months old in the spring when the event comes around you can bet I am gonna bring them. I can't keep all five but I hope to keep the best young prospect. If one or two of them love the sight of a bear and the excitment and two don't I have increased my odds of picking the right pups. It is just a tool to help evaluate things.

I am proud to be a bear hunter and I am not going to hide like it is some terrible thing I do behind closed doors. If we give them this without a fight it is only the beginning of what we are going to loose. When do we say enough is enough and stop them?

I am sorry if I offended anyone but lets use our heads and not believe all their propaganda that is what they are hoping we do!

[bearsnva]

MD and Ankle are 100% correct on this.No, these bays don't show a real hunting dogs worth, they are a good training tool for young dogs mostly and something for older dogs to do when they can't be in the woods. And something for the hunters to throw more money at their dogs, like we need something else. LOL. Don't even consider the bear being mistreated because the owner is NOT going to allow his pet AND moneymaker to be injured. Where we go the owners wife raised a cub in her house to wean it and I dare you to mistreat it.
Also no one mentioned the Shriner's are in partnership on the event in SC and make a lot of money for their projects on this event.The AKC will pay dearly for this if the hound hunters have enough spine to stand up and do something instead of arguing amongst ourselves, which sadly is the norm. Like said, I hope no one is foolish enough to think ALL field trials and animal events (circuses, rodeos, farming, livestock shows etc) aren't on the agenda.

[blackpaws]

you guys are right. you have the right to do this and permits and such and it is a heritage. i can't argue that. next time i will just keep my thoughts and opinions to myself.

[mdufresne]

Blackpaws please don't think I am slamming you. I will agree with you till the day I die that these bay events don't make a real dog. As you said the only place that happens is in the woods on the real thing. I just want people to really think about the bays before passing judgement. I think nearly everyone has used a trainer for pups at one point or another in their life. Everyone is entiltled to their opinion and that is what makes us a great nation. I don't think I am right or you are wrong I just want people to think about what is going to happen if we buy into their propaganda and split our strength. We need to say enough is enough and we are not going to keep giving up pieces and parts untill there is nothing left for us.

Blackpaws I welcome your input and your thoughts and respect you for saying what you thought. One thing I really liked that you said was having respect for the animals we hunt....that was a great point often forgotten. I did not mean to discount your thoughts I am just passionate about our way of life as you are.

[Ankle Express]

I want you to stand for what you believe in Blackpaws whether I agree or not and I'll respect that but from what I read you've made a descision without any previous knowlege or experience. I don't attend the events hardly at all but I do go about every spring with my pups. I'm not in South Carolina either. Doesn't mean much but does keep you from spending about two years with something just to have it not pan out because it had never seen a bear back up and stand its ground and still its not even close to a real bluff down in the brush. Not even close. Just a stepping stone. Great for the youngsters as well. Daddy can send both his pride and joys in together. Its a more controlled situation for bear hunters than a coyote/fox pen to coyote and fox hunters. I'll bet you my dogs and most of yours won't do nothing with 500 hundred people standing around looking at them but run around the fence and stair at strangers. Just ignore the bear. I've seen it before at the events. So totally don't judge it or knock it (dogs included) till you've tried it or been to see for yourself. Trust that if its legal and sanctioned and put on and attended by folks like us & yourself that it is done as respectfully as possible.

[tuefelhunden]

this is the letter recieved by the APA from the AKC

(transmitted via e-mail from James P. Crowley, executive secretary of the AKC)

August 16, 2010

Rodney Burris
President, American Plott Association

Dear Mr. Burris.

This concerns the relationship between the American Plottt Association and the American Kennel Club.

The American Kennel Club fully supports and encourages the holding of the field trials and hunts for the carious sporting and hound breeds, and has been overseeing such events since 1923. AKC also supports sporting activities like hunting. However, the AKC considers bear baying to be neither an acceptable competitive event nor sporting activity. While it might be legal in South Carolina, the AKC Board of Directors does not consider bear baying to be an acceptable exhibition.

Under the AKC Bylaws, an AKC club may not hold a purebred dog even or exhibition of any kind without the express permission of the American Kennel Club. Mr. Fielder has notified the club that bear baying is not an approved AKC activity and that in order to maintain the club’s event-giving privileges, assurances were needed that the club would cease holding such exhibitions. We have been advised that the Board of the American Plott Association has taken the position that it will continue to sponsor bear baying activities. In view of this, the American Kennel Club’s Board of Directors has no choice, but to revoke the AKC event-giving privileges of the American Plott Association. The club will thus be removed from all AKC club lists and will be barred from participating in any AKC activities, effective immediately.

We sincerely regret that this action became necessary, but the American Kennel Club does not believe this particular activity has any place in our sport.

Sincerely,
James P. Crowley

[oswald]

i am from south carolina right where all of the baypens and events take place. the main reason for it was south carolina has a week long bear season for dog hunters, and no training season. who wants to feed 10 dogs for an entire year and hunt for 6 days. that is bulls@#$. this is the main reason i left there. most people run bear at night pretending to coon hunt.north carolina has a real season that makes keeping dogs worthwhile. lots of my friends kept pet bears to get the dogs started with. most are not declawed and toothless as the scars on a few handlers will prove. only part of bear/hog bays that i would consider a bit much is the number of people competing if there was only 1 bear. ive been around those bears my whole life and they dont even break a sweat when the dogs bay them. you are talking about an animal that sticks his face in a nest of yellowjackets daily to get a sweat treat. everybody has a bleeding heart these days and feels the need to save something that is being treated bad, even murderers and child molestors have a fan club that dont want them put to death. this country has gone to sh#$ fast and a few of us hillbillys chasing a bear should be the least of anybodys worries!

[KLS]

It won't matter much longer,I bet their will be a bill on your Senate floor before long banning these events,They won again!!
If you ever have another event like that again which i doubt just Ban Video Cameras and only allow still Camera's for offical club business.
It sucks that you guy's have to deal with this, but never ever let a unknow person film any event without premission,you guy's were easy prey for these S.O.B.'s and hopefully they won't be sucessful in there plan to stop them. It is your right to hold these events but the Spin put on by a Bias Media will make it look like animal crulety and the people will see this as wrong and then your done.Never trust anyone with a camera.
Good luck

[mdufresne]

KLS the APA event bans all cameras still or video as well as cell phone cameras. It is posted everywhere and you will be asked to leave if a camera is seen in use.

These people snuck an undercover camera in and illegally obtained the footage. Wish we had an unlimited budget to prosecute them for that!

[Ankle Express]

Trust me they have videoed this undercover from a purse or something. Something that concealed their efforts completely. they got balls or were armed which was not allowed either. One thing for sure it would have been a yuppy beatdown otherwise. Every few years some tree dweller has to bring it to the forefront. About every time they swap political officials. Last time we kept dogs on leashes and let them bark at the bears till the politicians and law makers could educate themselves or attend. A compromise was reached, there will be no more permits. Dogs were turned back loose. Thats not good enough for them. Doesn't help that the republican party is falling apart and especially in SC where the republican gov. just admitted a love affair. He also admitted being fickled, then his wife left. They got their foot in the door in this state for various reasons and look to squash anything conservative left in that state and bear bays just happen to be on the list. To hell with AKC. Let them cut their own throats. Take away the events. Nobody would really complain. We do however use this as a training exercise and it has a place. Should be legal in all 50 states and you shouldn't give a damn whose feelings it hurts. F-em. If they can shop at the grocery store that sells meat from slaughtered animals and not bitch and complain and so-on then their hypocracy knows no bounds and they don't deserve my consideration for their fragile feelings. Lets look at it like this---this is 100% legal and open to the general public. Nobody had anything to hide but them. Any one of us (me included) most likely use our own traps, trainers and roll cages to start our own pups at home. Unless you can show me different from your particular state where and how its legal, then most likely what you or I do is at the least left for scrutiny and most likely in plain black and white against the law. You get caught doing something and plenty of folks have been caught doing stupid stuff to get and use trainers, then you are just as much a poster child for them as this is but you will stand alone. Everyone including your buddies will be justified to look the other way if by nothing more than you broke the law. Plain black and white. They won't want to be labeled in the law breaking hunter bracket with you, a poacher in the eyes of johnny public. They may support you 110% but when the lines are drawn they will not stand up for you, you will be alone. When these events are being put on like it or not somebody is standing up for you. No its not bear hunting and the bears are not wild but they both do resemble the real thing some in a very toned down way. Its a chance to see what some of the legends really have and communicate with other hunters in a way that just doesn't happen in the field. It was also at one point very informative and educational for folks to come see bear hunters, see their dogs, see how they feel about their dogs and see how we feel about our bears. It worked when people still had common sense. This ain't the first thing on the list and won't be the last. Hope I never reach a point where I'm picking which things on the list to stand up for and even worse just don't care I'm losing stuff anymore. I'm for all the rights we can keep and any we can get back whether they truly effect me or not. Every free-willing and living American should be. As for the trophy, well Johnny public is not going to see any difference between bear baying, bird dog trials, fox trials, coyote trials, nite hunts, high fence trophy management, rodoes, horse shows and so-on till there's nothing left. Wake up people or you will be next.

[Nolte]

Stephan,

You bring up an excellent point. What ever happened with hunting groups/organization supporting each other. I've seen this major shift in views in that last 10 years where each hunting type/organization is out to set up agendas that ONLY benefit their type of hunting and forget everybody else. The bowhunters don't want dog guys in the woods at the same time, the grouse hunters don't want bowhunters, the dog guys don't want trappers around, the walleye guys want less muskies, the bass guys want less walleyes, the musky guys want less duck hunters. It just goes on and on and on. We're all hunters and sportsman and most of us do multiple activities.

I am completely for anyone doing whatever hunting sport they like to do. It don't matter if you're flushing up grouse, pointing pheasants, shooting turkeys, chasing bear, arrowing whiteails or blasting ducks. Whatever floats your boat have a ball. If you need my vote to get more opportunties to enjoy our great outdoors, you've got it. But don't expect me to give up the stuff I like to do just so you can increase what you prefer to do. I want as many options, choices and experiences available as I can get. If somebody doesn't agree with that they can feel free to pound sand. Furthermore, they should keep their nose out of other people's business and just enjoy thier own sports instead of bitching. I can't stand people who's only satisfaction is to piss and moan about something they shouldn't be, then feel good when something is taken away.

[Ankle Express]

Nobody minds their own business anymore Nolte and everybody thinks their baby black bird is the blackest. Hell we are one country but every state is different. I'm ready to say bullshit. This country has got so spoiled its ridiculous. I would be all for abolishing state rights and laws. One damn country and one damn set of rules. Wrote up the old and right way. If you don't like them then here is the door and your visa to any other place. You can come hunt with me here in NC and get your tag right over the counter. If nothing else I should be able to get mine to come hunt with you. I'm tired of two sets of laws and two sets of standards in this country. Some get to do this and some get to do that, bullshit. We should be able to stand together and fall together. Whats fair for one should be fair for another. Basically in my opinion we have put laws in place and built a society based on handouts and get by free cards. We cater to what in the hound world would be considered culls. We have done this for so long that hard working people really can't get anywhere anymore. They are just caught in the quagmire of supporting the lazy dumbass culls. The strong don't survive any more they just disappear. Its not survival of the fittest anymore but survival of all and easiest for the weak. Its come down now to the weak and culls are running this country. Even our forefathers hundreds of years ago knew better than to let that happen. Everybody didn't write the declaration of independance nor the constitution. Just a select few. We still got the select few but don't have enough common sense in the majority any more to find those people. The weak and culls relate best to the other weak and culls and they now run this country. Thats about as deep into politics as I dare go.

[KLS]

They must have some really big balls to film your event undercover like that,too bad you didn't catch them I bet they wouldn't have tried that again.I bet this wasn't the first time they went undercover like that,I agree with you guys we need to stick together and help each other out,out here in Cali there allways seems to be fighting and B.S. about our C.H.C. and what they are or aren't doing, meanwhile our ememy's are united in there fight to stop anyone who hunts or owns a gun.
I hope you figure out who did it and give them a little Southern Justice!
We are like a big team and although we allways don't have to like each other or eat together ect.. your common cause should overcome any and all issues that we have.Maybe it's time for a little peta hunt?(lol sort of)

[Smiley]

Here is a quote from Tracey Jones on plottdogs.com
"Well, it will be a sad day when we all start yielding to public opinion. That's already whats wrong with parents, schools, politicians, and churches.

Truth is absolute and does not depend on public opinion. Either the bear bays are humane and therefore appropriate or they are inhumane and therefore inappropriate. Public opinion does not make it one or the other.

The bear bays as they stand now are just as humane as many other sport. They are just as docile and carry no more risk of injury than "catch and release fishing", calf-roping, bull riding, sheep herding, and pee wee football. The only reason this is an issue is because real, red blooded, back boned Americans keep yielding to special interests groups like the Humane Society. They have brained washed the public with dramatized TV commercials and rhetoric based on a false philosophy of animal-human relations. Bear bays, as they are conducted today, are VERY humane. Only a brain washed, Oprahized, sissyfied, limp-wristed disciple of the humane society would see it other wise. Public opinion does not make bear bays something they are not. Bear bays are humane unless you allow "humane" to be defined by the crowd I just described.

Any "KC", hunting group, or dog association who bows to public opinion on this issue is only giving place to the enemy.

If I sound unusually harsh so be it. I'm sick of these groups cramming their personal agenda down our throats while God-fearing people are told to mind their business and keep their opinions to themselves. The same general public already feeds us abortion, sodomy, adultery, pornography, and drugs/alcohol abuse in epic proportions and howls if we speak against it.

Its time people stood for what is right and tells the special interest groups and public to mind their own business!

Nothing is inevitable unless you surrender!"