2nd Day Lion

[clb]

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[chilcotin hillbilly]

cougarhound, what kitten thats a nice tom.

You can't be serious???

[TomJr]

You guys from up north are spoiled I am on the southern border of AZ and an average tom lion runs 100-120lbs anything over 140lbs is super nice and few and far between.

Females average 70-90lbs.

Look at what they have to eat here coues whitetail deer are average 80lbs and javalina are average 30-40lbs. Thats if they are lucky alot of the time they have to make do with rock squirels, skunks, porkypines, couati ect....

Norhtern part of AZ you can add around 20lbs to the averages so 120-140lbs for average tom and 160 is exceptional.

[bency]

Thats a dang nice tom, and catching any lion in the dirt is a trophy and a feat very few can do...

[cougarhound]

adult


sub-adult

[bency]

cougarhound,

You obviously havnt hunted desert country before...because you would know those high country toms like that have no problem reaching weights of that sort, especially when theres a plentiful array of food...These desert lions on the other hand dont have the same options available thus having an affect on their body size, which is their natural way of adapting over time.

[cougarhound]

cougarhound,

You obviously havnt hunted desert country before...because you would know those high country toms like that have no problem reaching weights of that sort, especially when theres a plentiful array of food...These desert lions on the other hand dont have the same options available thus having an affect on their body size, which is their natural way of adapting over time.

you can argue till you are blue in the face about size, i've seen lions from az, nm etc. i have also looked through the b&c record books there are big cats from the south, you keep killing small cats there will be no big cats, you shoot a 6 point whitetail it will never be an 8 or 10 point buck,- fact... MOST, not all outfitters will let clients shoot anything,2 days of a 5 or 10 day hunt they save fuel , wear and tear on vehicles,horses, hounds etc etc,

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Cabelas cougar guide web page of these southern big toms. My question is why would anyone pay for a little tom like that, word on the street is this outfitter kills anything 3 years or older, male or female. You don't kill big toms if the average age is 3, it doesn't matter where you live.

[crusherscott]

Here we go again!!! Someone who has no idea what they're talking about!!! I thought they banned IKE! Lol. Come on down and bring those good dogs of yours and show us where those 200lb toms are hiding!

[bency]

cougar hound,

As for NM those lions that are averaging those sizes are coming from the northern part of the state which are probably being caught in snow like you guys do it. Thus again the food supply is a lot more up that way due to altitude, which equals a lot more elk, deer, and etc due to water supply.

Have you ever hunted anywhere else that is anything close to an arid environment such as Southern NM or Southern AZ??

[cougarhound]

Here we go again!!! Someone who has no idea what they're talking about!!! I thought they banned IKE! Lol. Come on down and bring those good dogs of yours and show us where those 200lb toms are hiding!

i think we just showed you where the big toms were !
i've seen lynx bigger than that ''nice tom cougar''

[crusherscott]

Damn sure not down here!!! If you can prove me wrong just come on down!

[sourdough]

I think you may want check your facts. Size range among lions through out north and south America can be very different. Even with in a state the average size of adult males or females will range from area to area regardless of age. One can not compare an adult male lion from BC and one that was taken in southern AZ any more than one taken in southern AZ could compare to one taken in Argentina. There is no doubt that age dynamics plays a role in the size of trophy animals in an area but, if the genetics and prey base are not there then you get what you get. Look at the Jaguar, the ones that come from the Pantanel region of Brazil are huge, males range from 220-300lb so for those that do things in the metric system that would be 100kg-136kg. No other region in south America do they grow that big. I would like to see a big adult BC lion head down to the southern AZ desert and try catching a 70lbs Coues deer and yes that's an adult in a hundred degree weather at night. He wouldn't be able to even move let alone catch something to eat. The most wide spread of big cats in the Americas have that position because of their ability to adapt to a wide range of habitat and climate types. So get after those 200 pounder's with 15inch skulls up north because you won't find them in southern AZ.

African you are right so I fixed my error 1kg = 2.2 lbs I should have divided not multiply and double check my answer thanks.

sourdough

[African]

Sourdough 220lb is 99kg - 300lb is 136kg.
A large male adult African lion (wild) is in the region of 220kg and a very large male leopard is 90kg.

[Mike Leonard]

Couple things:

Check out this great old book: http://www.amazon.com/Puma-Mysterious-A ... 0486211843


This book is full of information on the cougar and also many photos and records of sub-types and such by regions. Size differences and things of that nature. What will really amaze you is that the heaviest lion ever recorded in these studies actually came from Arizona. 276 pounds I beleive and he came from an area just a ways west of Prescott.

That being said for the most part we do know that the desert sub species do not attain the body size of their northern cousins. that being said a trophy tom is a trophy tom anywhere so if the average for your area is 135 pounds and you whack one of those or a 150 pounder you got a big one. In my area occasionaly 3 coming 4 year old toms will exceed 150 pounds so they are pretty average. the gene pool also has a lot to do with it and then as Doug said getting old enough to get grown out.

Now that Tom that started this is a very good tom for that border country and you will hunt hard an long to catch one much bigger. That old 6 ft 5" hunter there does make him look smaller than he would if the guy was only say 5' 10".

Now the reason a hunter would pay to kill a tom like that has as much to do with the hunt in that country as it does with just the size of the lion. I have hunted with these guys and I can tell you it is about as good as traditonal lion hunting gets. Remote border mountain county. rugged and sceneic on the back of good mules with hard pounding dry ground dogs working their hearts out. Not many pop up hour long chases in that country at times the trail may have to be followed over the course of several days before you jump the cat. The hunter dang sure gets his money's worth if he is really after a lion hunt and not just wanting to walk to a tree and pull the trigger on a cat and go home. I am not trying to say this is the only way but don't be an idiot and think that size is the only determination of a trophy hunt.

Also I can tell you that the Outitting Service that guided for this cat has very high standards and I am sure if you check references with some of their past clients you will probably get to heae some fun and exciting tales. Lion hunting on public lands on bare ground in traditional manner is one of the last great wild hunts left.

Sourdough you analogy of the jaguars was right on and amazing I might say.Why a big male Mexican jauguar may go 150 pounds and his southern cousin from Matto Grosso of Brazil or Pantanal Swamps of Bolivia could go go 300 pounds.


Why are there pygmy elephants and standard size elephants in the same forest? Now ponder that, and then think about the chicken or the egg, and and after that. Ahhh! Too much to think about guess might as well just go huntin. LOL!