2nd Day Lion

[chilcotin hillbilly]

So does Jeff Allen hunt this southern border area as well as he doesn't have a lion over 120lbs on his website. I thought he hunted Utah or parts of a couple different states. I have seen enough pictures of way bigger cats taken from his area.
That being said I would like to give that southern horse/mule hunts a go one day.

[Mike Leonard]

Yes Jeff hunts about the same latitude that I do and he has taken some really big lions over the years as have I. He hunts Arizona and extreme southern Utah. But this is still Rocky Mountain country and higher altitudes. Even my high desert runs upwards of 6500-7000 ft. in elevation, and the more alpine areas up to 8500 ft. Down on the border country you are in Sonorian Desert and even the small mountain chains down there are fairly low evelvation.

It would probably be a better scale if we did lions like they do whitetail or even elk. Say you score a big Alberta White tail buck's horns and a big ( Ha! Ha!) Southern Arizona Coes Whitetail buck the same but they have a different category for them because all things being relative the Coues are tiny in comparism but none the less a high scoring Coues buck is a tremendous trophy and highly sought after. A giant Roosevelt bull elk is scored the same as a Tule elk from California but seperate categories have been set up for each. And the Shiras Bull moose of the western US are tiny compared to the giant Alaskan Bull Moose. Hard to do with lions I know because a big Kaibab Arizona 190 pound tom could take a notion and trot from the top of Arizona to the bottom down around Nogales to visit the local senoritas and get whacked and blow the lid off that book. LOL!




I think time evolution and food supply has a lot to do with size. Much like the giant bears of the Kodiak evolved becasue of the abundance over eons of salmon to eat. And the big jaguars of the S. A. swamps have had abundant food supply with the every present capybara the large 100 pound rodents that area all over those jungle swamps.

[Brady Davis]

I'm no expert but of course there will be regional differences. Cougarhound- think of it like this. Up there in Canada everything is bigger, women, deer and appartently tom lions. Its cold, women get big, fat and hairy in order to survive; as do tom lions. Now, down here in the states life is good, our women are lean, tan, not excessivly hairy, fun to be around, etc.... Just like our tom lions. Regional differences buddy.

ChasinTail, awesome pictures on an awesome hunt. Keep 'em coming. What you are doing is what I'm working towards.

[Coyote]

Check out the post "Puma de Mayo" by Azlongears on the 2nd page of the Lion Hunting section. Shows some great pic's of a 9 year old southern AZ tom.

[killroy]

chasintail it looks like to me you guys run a top notch hunt and camp. It is a real accomplishment to tree lions on dry ground and in the heat. I am sure your hunter left very satisfied knowing he had been on a real hunt. He probably will remember it as the hardest and most rewarding hunt he has ever been on. I do not know why someone would wait around for a phone call to say that it is snowing so they can fly in, take a two hour snowmobile ride to a tree to shoot a lion and then turn around and fly home. No matter how big the lion is. Most hunters come to hunt and enjoy the experience. Good Job!!!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Killroy. not everyone hunts on call, just the guys that can't get it done with poor conditions. Some guides are actually picky and will spend a week looking for that jumbo tom to be successful and send their clients away happy.

[ChasinTail]

Chilcotin Hillbilly,

There definitely is no argument that lions in BC are bigger than lions in Southern AZ. Your assumption that we just rolled out of camp on the second day and shot this lion because it was a quicky is crazy, however I can see how you drew that conclusion. The reality of the situation is that we hunted this tom on multiple occassions. Having trailed him over several weeks and running him up and over the mountain more than once, we knew we had good competition. We don't drive roads "sizing up" lions based on the size of the track they just left in fresh snow. I'm not saying that we have it harder than anyone that hunts snow, I'm saying that we choose to hunt the way we do, and that's that. Lions are smaller in body size here, but that is by necessity as some others have previously stated.

Your argument has now turned to the work ethic of us as guides. I'm not going to take it personal, because you don't know us. It sounds as if you have drawn a conclusion based on things you may have heard from guys that live in Arizona? May or may not be the case, but we're use to it. Nothing new. We have a great reputation with our clients, who continue to refer friends and family. You're a guide, you know what that means.

Personally, I have looked at your posts, and seen the pics you post. My impression of you as a guide has been nothing but respectful, because I do believe that you run a great outfit up there, taking some of the biggest bodied cats I've ever seen. Up to this point I could honestly say that I wouldn't have hesitated to send a client up your way if they were looking for a truly huge snow cat. (not that you care. I'm sure you do very well.) We will continue to hunt the shoes off these half ass horses, and we have a blast doing it. If you do ever decide to give the desert a try let us know.... we'll put you on the mule that has the least buck in it. You can reach me anytime 480-221-3244

Tyler

[sheimer]

Tyler, I don't know you from Adam, but I've got to say...Way to hold your head up. That is what it's all about.

Scott

[Brady Davis]

Tyler, on a sidenote....That is a nice website you have.

[Dan V]

If this is a conservation issue, something needs to be understood.
Conservation is defined as “the wise use of.”

People have been killing lions liberally in Arizona for over one hundred years. For much of that time, they were a varmint and had a bounty on their head. I know ranchers, who in that time killed hundreds and hundreds of lions. One ranching/lion hunting family caught and killed over 300 lions within their fences and their total including the bounty and govt lion hunting they did was over one thousand.

A cowboy/lion hunter friend of mine took over managing a ranch decades ago. When he started, the calf crop was around 40%. After years of lion hunting the calf crop was over 80%. He has since left that ranch and the lions are back.

My best friend’s Great Grandpa Perkins had a barn and saddle house down on the Verde River in the early 1900’s that was covered (every inch) with lion feet. There are still lions there.

There were thousands and thousands of lions that were turned in for the bounty, and many that were never reported. Many ranchers and cowboys waged war on lions. Govt. hunters spent decades killing lions over generations.

Currently there are govt. lion hunters in many states including AZ who make their living killing lions year after year on ranches that need this service. There are professionals who kill lions for a big horn sheep society. If you were to talk to some of these men, they will tell you there are just as many if not more lions than ever.

The punch line: Even with the above efforts, there are still lions, and the govt. is still paying people to kill them.

Lion management practices from the north do not work in the south. Snow and logging roads from the north are different. Migrating game herds are different; in some parts of AZ game migrates very little if at all. Cattle grazing practices are different. In AZ almost every ranch grazes year round and the cattle stay out. In the north all the cattle are brought in and fed hay.

We are comparing apples and watermelons.

Chaisin Tail, good job. Looks like you guys have a great hunt to offer clients.

[slowandeasy]

tyler, don't know ya either, but know it takes alot to set up a opperation like that. it looks like first class to me. and i thought everyone knew there was a difference in size in the different regions. good luck!!

[slowandeasy]

danv, not sure who ya are but your best friend is my son inlaw. sure gets rough if they go toward mingus on that part of the ranch!!

[COUESAZ]

Tyler I do not know you. I do know your partner Donnie. He was just a little mean red head shit when I knew him. Now he is big enough to wip most men and I know he could. I grew up with his older brother Jason. I can tell you all that this group must be good people. They come from top notch families. In fact my brother Mark is up on the mountain with donnies oldest brother Devin right now hunting elk. I also know for a fact that the hounds you guys have put together are some o the best on dry ground. I do not see you guys on the coues forum much any more. I have talked to ya over there a couple times. People will always try to push our buttons man but only a handfull of people handle it with class like you have. The fact is we are not stupid peole and know what assholes sound like. It is usualy a sound of hot air passing fast through a set of lipps. So make sure you do not let people like that slow you up any. Get out and take some more lions and save more of my Coues Bucks. My brother and I hope to be out helping this season with our hounds.just a family thing for us. I shut down my guide service a few years ago. With the 20 some boys in our family we have plenty of hunters.haha post up some more Photos when you can.

[killroy]

Tyler I hunt mostly on the dirt to and the difference I have found is the hardest thing about hunting the snow is beating the other houndsmen to the track. A track in 8in of fresh snow and a pack of good hounds is a pretty sure bet. Houndsman that never hunt the dirt, don't realize how low the success rate really is when hunting the dirt. It has been my experience that we are pretty lucky to catch 2 or 3 out of every ten we start on the dirt. (maybe our dogs are just worthless lol) Like I said earlier it looks like to me you are doing a great job. If you ever get to Utah and would like to hunt here give me a shout. LeRoy

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I guess I should do a little research before I open my big mouth. I stand corrected. I just had a hard time grasping the stories of gaint toms from the different southern states.
This hound site has peaked my interest as far as hunting different terrain, and different dogs and learning about some of the legendary dirt hunters. I had no idea this much info was availible. I learn something new everyday.
I do have a problem with alot of outfitters in the states not charging enough for quality hunts, in the snow, on the dirt, mules, horses or sleds. There a lot of guys that charge 1/2 what I charge which makes no sense. The cost of living must be cheap south of the 49th. Why should a quality hunt, in a good camp, or lodge with good food and good stock and equipment be so much less then a quality muledeer or elk hunt. We all know there is alot more to the hound gig then still/stand hunting.
I hope I didn't chap your ass to bad Tyler, if I am ever down your way I will look you up.
Doug