Vaquero Traditions

[Brady Davis]

Hadn't seen this topic talked about much, if any on here. Curious if any of you guys follow any of the traditional methods of starting horses and working cattle? It's something I've studied, and have a loooooong way to go with! I have personally never taken one horse from a hack to the two-rein and then straight up in he bridle. However, I'd sure enough like to. It's on the list. I've ridden many nice colts in a hack and gotten one years ago going real nice in a two-rein and then sold him to a guy at a ranch ropin. I've also ridden a few horses in a spade that could do amazing things, I just wasn't the one that got them there.


One of the greatest sites to see is to visit The Californios competition. Some handy guys there that can do some impressive things with a horse, cow and rawhide.


Be curious to hear yalls thoughts. What types of gear do you like? Clinicians? Stories...both good and bad..ha

[Spencer]

I'm no trainer, just a rider. But I do admire the Vaquero style from the hackamore to straight up in the bridle. Working with my trainer(my wife) she is helping me with my 4 YO teaching her to give to the bit yet be very light. Right now she is very controllable using only legs and body weight. There is a site that has some chatter about it on and off you might want to check out. http://WWW.Ranchingcountry.com good site anyway you look at it. I know Les Vogt is supposed to be one of the best trainers, and I hear good things from Richard Caldwell as well. http://www.vaquerohorseman.com/

[Brady Davis]

[Cold Track]

Martin Black from Idaho would be a person that you might look into his clinics, buy his videos, and read his articles. He was a son in law of the late great Ray Hunt and is a top hand with horses and cattle, may be the best going IMO. I use a lot of the gear, I rope with a fifty foot rope, mule hide on the horn, (rubber on the horn for ranch roping is like a swear word) armitas, or chinks, romal reins, and I do have one horse that's handy enough that I ride in a deep mouth bit like a spade. Love the way these new cotton ropes feel, they feel like a riata and have the heavier weight like one but seem a lot smoother for a wantabe like me cause you don't just pick up a riata and rope. I'm no top hand, but do enjoy trying to be and love the ways with horses and cattle of the buckaroo. There's dang sure some stuff I don't agree with but for the most try to do most things in the buckaroo tradition. One piece of gear you won't see me in is a flat hat, just not me!

[desertdog]

I read an interesting book written by a Northern Arizona "Hash Knife" cowboy. He was talking about the 1880's when large numbers of cattle were brought in from Texas to stock the Hash Knife ranges, The Texas cowboy's who drove em' stayed in Arizona and brought a whole new way of workin' cattle. Short grass ropes replaced the long leather reata and a double cinch instead of the centerfire saddle, and tyin' "hard an' fast", as opposed to the dally. Of course there was a friendly rivalry so "the boy's' set up a contest. Who could rope and tie a steer the fastest. Buckaroo against Texas style.. Well, the Texas boy's ended up ropin' and tyin' those steers about three times faster than the Buckeroo's and them boy's all started switchin' over to the Texas style...(guess you can tell I'm from Texas.lol).

[Powder River Walker]

Brady,
IMO you are going to find way more people like your self as opposed to those that can acctually train a cold the Vaquero or California styles. Just for the simple reason that there is not the working cow ranches around anymore like their used to be. When these guys were using their training technics they were riding long hourse covering alot of country. people now days don't have the country or mainly the time to put into these colts. I under stand they make a "Reining" horse at 3, and they handle great but you take them out of the arena away from nice sand and ride them it will be the worse horse that you have ever been on. It is a sad thing but I think it is a lost tradition not because of the lack of intrest from people but because of the lost of land and cattle that need to be cowboyed. You like me would have been happier to live 150 years ago.
Powder River

[Brady Davis]

[Mike Leonard]

I grew up learning from my Uncle who was a student of Ed Connell the Author of Hackmore Reinsman and the Dean of Calfornio type reining horse trainers. He was the cowboss on the fames Miller and Lux Cattle Company in California. I learned early the value of taking ones time and turning out a bridle horse that would stay finely tuned for many years and remain sound. I start my personal horses in the bosal and gradually move them to the two rein and finish them straight up in the bride Spade or Half Breed by 5 or 6 . It takes a long time and patience but it is truely worth it.

In the day of 3 year old futurities crazes and cookie cutter training many fine young horses are ruined in this throw away can't wait world.

Here is a bridle horse that even now at 20 years old is still sound and flashy and fast.

[Brady Davis]

[sheimer]

This is quite the thread....I like it.

I'm no trainer and not exactly what you would call a follower of the "Vaquero" way.

I've went through a few clinics and taken something from each of them. I also am a firm believer in learning what not to do is just as important as learning what to do.

This past summer I went to my first Buck Brannaman clinic. He spoke quite a bit about keeping a horse sound for his lifetime, as opposed to what the "thow away can't wait" world is doing to these colts nowadays. His philosophy of balance being the key to keeping a horse sound and able to move quickly and accurately. You watch a reining or cutting on TV and you'll see these guys just driving the front end into the ground. He's the first guy that I've heard talk about elevating the pole as part of collection. Most of the other guys think that lower is better.

Mike, you mentioned that you start them in a bosal and move to a two rein from there. Any particular reason for starting at a bosal, not a snaffle and then to the bosal?

Scott

[Mike Leonard]

Just a matter of preference although some do start in the ring snaffle and then go to the bosal and then top the two rein. The bosal keeps the developing mouth and bars very soft and also no worry about the wolf teeth early on. Also if you do proper ground work using the doublar technique you seem to soften the young horse without any of they annoying lipping, mouthing, head tossing and negative action.

You are very astute about the elevated poll as opposed to the nose in the dirt slumber action of the reining patterns of today. Buck is very good hand and his association with Ray Hunt and Bill Dorrance brings new life to a centuries old tradition of hundreds of years of working cow horses with roots tracing back to Spain.

For a real kick folks order a copy of the video Calfornia Ranch Roping finals from Reno, you will see some real working ropers and fancy loops. Handle cattle the easy way the way you keep the gain on the beast without the pain. Modern team roping and team penning may be fun but they would get your behind fired real quick on a ranch that is working for profit.

[Powder River Walker]

Mike you make some real good points, and if you don't mind I would like to add on. I start all my colts in a halter (same as bosal) to me when you put a snaffle on a colt right away most of the time the next step real close to that is getting on. those are two real big steps in a colts mind. One he has never had anything in his mouth before and two some one is crawling on him. when I get ready to move one into a snaffle I will saddle him and then just put the head stall on then the halter over it. No reins so it isn't a two rein setup just the head stall, then I will pony him off another horse and go for a good ride. after that it is up to the colt on how it is handling the snaffle for me to start putting pressure on its mouth.

I am a team roper and see alot of different people out there. I think that the USTRC ruined alot of people. It braught players to the sport but Livestock sence it left out. You take anyone that wants to win at a high level of team roping and they know how to use their cattle to win. it is not a "chuck and duck" thing for them, by doing that your cattle are always playing catch up and their back feet are behind them. you handle cattle at their speed and they will be "pegging" in a forward motion giving your heeler an oppertunity to make a run. the sport is called team roping not team keep away.

there are very few people that under stand leg pressure and in a spade bit that is what it is. they don't know how to ride all they do is sit and bounce. I was this kind of person up until I got married and my wife got me going in the right direction. Every one sees a spade or real high port or a chain port combo as control, Because they see some one that has a horse that will sit and stop cross over and spin roll back. all the while the horses head is being left alone.

on a last note there are alot of "horse people" "cow people" "cowboys" "rodeo athelets" but there are damn few stockmen that live and the few that there are are dieing dead or to old to teach anyone anymore.
PRW

[Here Kitty Kitty]

You guys all have great points. I am blessed to work on a large ranch in New Mexico. 350 sec. Horseback almost everyday and strongly believe in a lot of the Vaquero traditions. Time and patience. It takes years to make a nice bridle horse and not all are made to be one. Today people want a quick fix and results fast. Making a horse soft in the bridle with a ring snaffle or bosal takes time. Getting one broke with your legs also takes time. No one wants to do this anymore.

There are lots of good videos out there to watch or attend clinics for help, but very few people want to take the time to finish a horse and follow the steps on taking one from start to finish in the bridle.

As you all know so many great colts are ruined every year. Not by just cutters and reiners, but ropers and cowboys too. People have problems with them and go strait to a bigger bit instead of going back to the basics and getting one soft in your hands and legs then moving on. We all get so tangled up in trying to hurry on everything. We need to set down and realize time is what it takes. The Vaqueros take time in everything they do. Their doctoring, cattle work or just messing with horses. They get results. Most people just want a bridle horse at 4 instead of 7. A great bridle horse is wonderful no matter his age.

I know a lot of people don't like bullfights or dressage. But right there shows how broke horses can become by just using your legs and the slightest rein pressure. Those horses are amazing to watch and the people who ride them are so very talented.
Take care. Missy

[Mike Leonard]

PRW,

Boy did you say a mouthful there!

[Powder River Walker]

yea mike I kinda was like a ball going down a hill once I started I couldn't stop.
PRW