did hunters cause ID kittens to starve?

[Emily]

AP story says ID lion kittens starving because hound hunters harassed mom

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/642 ... illed.html

3 malnourished cougar kittens killed in E. Idaho
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

POCATELLO, Idaho -- Three malnourished mountain lion kittens killed this week at the direction of a state wildlife biologist may have been starving because they and their mother had been treed so often by hunters that the adult cat had no time to hunt, the biologist says.

"It's really unfortunate that this happened," said Carl Anderson of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game.

He said recent reports from the Mink Creek area, about seven miles outside this eastern Idaho city, had various hunters with dogs treeing a female mountain lion with kittens in order to take pictures of the family.

"I believe it is conceivable the female hadn't had time to kill a deer for a while because she's been on the run quite often," Anderson told the Idaho State Journal.

Residents in the area had reported seeing a mountain lion with one or more kittens, sightings that Anderson said were unusual for an animal as secretive as a mountain lion.

"Generally, the reason for acting that way is (cougars are) very malnourished and don't have the strength or energy to run," Anderson said. "Once they get to that point, there's nothing we can do. They will continue getting into trouble until they die, which is generally not very long."

He said two of the young mountain lions were shot Sunday and a third one on Monday after a U.S. Forest Service employee living at the Mink Creek Ranger Station reported one of the kittens was staying near a shed.

"He said he could approach it close enough to touch it if he needed to," Anderson said.

Anderson said he told the Forest Service employee to kill the mountain lions if he saw them again.

"(Sunday night) he called and said he'd killed the two kittens in the hay barn," said Anderson. "(Monday) morning he called and said a third one was acting the same way. I recommended they kill the third one too."

In Idaho, hunters can use dogs to pursue mountain lions, which typically results in the mountain lions climbing a tree. Also, hunters with dogs sometimes tree lions for sport with no intention of killing them.

"Many hound hunters prefer not to shoot their quarry," Mark Gamblin, supervisor for Fish and Game's southeast region, told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "Their objective is to enjoy the chase and take photographs of the cats when they've been treed, then let them go."

He said it's illegal to shoot a mountain lion with kittens and added he had no idea what happened to the mother cat. He said the kittens were less than a year old.

"I think it's very unlikely that the mother would have abandoned the kittens," he said.

He said the agency had no choice but to have the kittens killed.

"They could not fend for themselves, they were starving to death," Gamblin said. "There were no alternatives because there are no outlets to place them, and they cannot be returned to the wild."

The mountain lion hunting season in the area runs from Sept. 1 through March.

---

Information from: Idaho State Journal, http://www.journalnet.com

[Blue Man]

I hope not. I would like to think us Hounders are better than that. We try to preserve are hunting not destroy it..
By the way I need spell check on here.

[Spanky]

please give me a break the bleeding heart liberals. Maybe the mother was killed by one of there pet wolves has anyone thought of that

[Roy Auwen]

I would say that is your typical wildlife biologist, makeingexecutive dicisions on the telephone!!! From information given by a forest service emplyoee. Without even looking at the cats or haveing a qualified vet.

[bossman]

I have cheked that area no less than 3 days a weak all winter long and have not found a wolf track yet...
I would find that female and her kittens at least once a weak or more.The kittens where with her more times than not...
About christmas time a large group of hound,s man begun to check the area daily and turned out dogs 3 times that i am aware of...
I have not found the female since christmas day!!!

sorry to say it spanky but ya cant lay the blame for this story on the liberals. It is what it is.

[bluedogs]

i dont see how hound hunters could of ran her and the kittens to starve to death if that large group of hunters turned out 3 times there is still plenty of time inbetween to make a kill and eat it to. lions hunt at night and during the day hound hunters arnt supost to run the dogs at night so there is alot of time for her to make a kill. i have heard bobcats over here are being found dead from starving to death in areas with plenty of food sorces there is probly somthing wrong with her guts like a type of worm or somthing i cant see hound hunters running her till she drops why wouldnt she just go to another area if the pressure is so hard in that area??

[Spanky]

Bossman you say you have not found the female, has anyone checked a female into fish and game from that area?

Naturally my first reaction is gonna be the bleeding hearts because I deal with them on a daily basis here. I have biologist telling me there are not wolves in drainages where I have actual video footage of them

My second though would be someone killed her and depending on whether she was lactating or not checked her in or left her lay . If thats the case then hang the bastards but they should not lump all houndsmen into the same mold as that scum. They should use words like poaching instead.

[Jason Waterhouse]

Well said spanky there not houndsman there scum

[MTblack&tan]

My guess would be the guys that turned out on her 3 times were young guys just getting into the sport. Not thinking about what they are actually doing, just excited to run a cat. I agree with Spanky, the female was probably killed and just left so that noone would get in trouble. But guess what, it will catch up to them someday. Just curious how the fish and game is going to handle the dead lions. Is there a quota in that area and if so are they gonna count the lions against the quota? In my opinion they should. Just my two cents.

[BEARCLAW]

IDAHO IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE HOUNDSMEN CONTROLLING THE LION POPULATION. THERE IS NO QUOTA AND THE ONLY LIMITING FACTOR IS THAT A FEMALE WITH YOUNG MAY NOT BE TAKEN.

THERE MAY BE A NUMBER OF FACTORS OR REASONS WHY THESE YOUNG CATS WHERE STARVING OR IF INDEED THEY REALY WERE STARVING. ANIMALS HAVE INCREDIBLE INSTINCTS TO SURVIVE AND ARE ABLE TO RECOVER FROM SOME AMAZING THINGS.

IF THEY REALY WANTED TO HELP THESE YOUNG OUT THERE ARE MANY ROUTES THAT THEY COULD HAVE TAKEN. OVIOUSLY THEY DID NOT WANT TO TAKE THE TIME OR MAKE THE EFFORT TO PLACE THESE CATS WHERE THEY COULD HAVE BEEN RAISED AND CARED FOR. SO IN ALL ACTUALITY THE DEATH OF THREE LYONS IS ON THE HANDS OF THE FOREST SERVICE.

THE FINGER HAS BEEN POINTED AT THE HOUNDSMEN FOR AN EASY SCAPE GOAT. THIS HAS ELIMINATED THE RESPONSIBLE PARTY THAT KILLED THE KITTENS.

THE MOTHER COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED WHILE IN TURN TRYING TO KILL A BUCK DEER. SHE COULD HAVE MET HER FATE BY ANOTHER TOM TRYING TO KILL HER KITTENS. SHE COULD HAVE BEEN HIT BY A CAR. SHE MAY BE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW TRYING TO FIND FOOD FOR HER KITS.

IM NOT SAYING THAT IT WASNT POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE SHOT HER. IT IS VERY WELL POSSIBLE. THIS ISNT A PERFECT WORLD AND HOUNDHUNTERS ARE NOT PERFECT. A FEMALE THAT IS NOT LACTATEING CAN HAVE KITTENS AND IT CAN BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL IF SHE HAS KITTENS.

THE FISH AND GAME HAS MADE THE RULES, AND A FEMALE IS LEGAL TO TAKE AS LONG AS SHE DOESNT HAVE YOUNG WITH HER, AND SHE IS NOT LACTATEING. THIS LEAVES THE FEMALE AT RISK WHEN SHE DOES NOT HAVE HER YOUNG WITH HER.

PERSONALLY IM NOT OUT TO KILL A CAT JUST HAPPY TO TREE ONE AND TAKE A FEW PICS. BUT TO EACH HIS OWN. WHAT I DONT APRECIATE IS SOMEONE POINTING THE FINGER WITHOUT PROOF. THIS IS BAD PUBLICITY THAT WE DONT NEED. I DONT THINK HE WOULD APRECITATE US TELLING THE PUBLIC THAT HE BEATS HIS KIDS WHEN HIS BOY COMES TO SCHOOL WITH A BLACK EYE.

[Kevin D]

To me, this a prime example of tabloid journalism run amuck. All we know for certain is that a female lion had apparently abandoned her kittens. As to the reason why, one can only speculate. To get hounded to the point of exhaustion is only one of an infinite number of reasons why she would abandon her kittens and, IMO, one of the least likely. The danger of this type of reporting is that unthinking people read it and accept it as fact.

Natural death, injury, or illness to the female are the most likely causes of the orphaned kittens but nobody is going to report that. Nope, create a villian and suddenly it becomes newsworthy.......regardless of whether it's true.

[3bigelk]

Idaho houndsman recieved a black eye because a terrible paper reported false/misinformed information and a FIsh and Game Commisioner opened his mouth without even seeing the cats in question.

For all of you that supported the houndsman in this post, thank you. For the person that drives that canyon 3 times a week and does not know a single individual that may have ran puppys on this female and her kittens you do nothing but tear our sport down. BOSS did you, the paper, or Carl Anderson(F&G director) know how many deer kills that this little pack of lions had in the small area they call home. I personaly know of three in a two week period(Malnutritioned my eye) Do any of these parties actually know how big these "kittens" are. I do they range from 50-65 pounds. Does anyone care that Carl Anderson gave a private individual permission by telephone to shoot three cats without tags for any of them. The fish and game did not even send a person out to verify what if anything was a problem. For those of us that know this area we are very familiar with all the residents of the canyon because they live with these cats. They call us if they have problems. However because of the poor decsions of a F&G director, the houndsman of this valley have 3 less cats to run and a few more nieghbors that are now that much more misinformed. With two other small cats being killed in the same area in the same week this areas lion population has been decimated.

Anyone that cares about our sport should stop pointing fingers at other groups in this brotherhood and start focusing on who is ruining your sport and reputation. I promise you it is not the group that knows what they ar in looking at in a tree.

As you can tell this story not only upset me but the 10 other houndsman that caught wind of this in our area. We sent someone from our group to talk with Carl Anderson about the blatant misrepresentation he gave our sport. Boss, did anyone in your group do anything constructive to help our sport?

This is one of the best sports in the world. Foucus on preserving it!

[B&T man]

Sounds like Boss helped the sport by not running mama and the kittens over and over again. Pretty slim chance that mama starved to death, pretty good chance she's in someones deepfreeze or the taxidermy shop. Probably took 3 times to catch her. JMO

[MTblack&tan]

I agree with B&T Man that Boss did do something by doing nothing when he cut the families tracks. I also agree with 3bigelk that the questions should be answered by the F&G guy. Do you think if a houndsman had called him in regards to the three kittens that he would have given the same command? The sad part is, a houndsman probably would have had a better idea of what condition the kittens were in. I think the fish and game is in a bad spot and needs to answer some questions. I feel bad for the houndsmen in that area who now have less cats to chase and will feel the impact of all this for years to come.