Ignorance, Greed or NM water?

[Jeff Shaw NM]

Why would "REAL HOUNDSMEN" fill a complete female quota in the first snow storm leaving "19" un-harvestable Toms with 2 1/2 months left of wasted season???

BLOWS MY MIND
jus ventin,

[Mike Leonard]

Jeff,

I have asked myself the same question many times. We know that first time hounders especially if they have bought a few hounds most likley will kill the first lion they run up a tree. So with a 50% chance of that being a female Boom! Now then once they get a lion home to show off they generaly have a few friends who are ready to go get one and now the hounders is a big time lion catcher so again first lion up Boom! And we know new hounders come and go just like New Mexico snow.

Now then the second and perhaps biggest factor is the shortage of mature toms in some areas are outfitted hunts. Yes sorry to say the Outfitters may be the single biggest factor. You ride around with a fat cat client for a few days bitching and griping about not seeing any lion tracks and one thing after another. The outfitter says well Mr. Client the lions arn't moving very well but we will keep looking. The Client says listen Mr. Big Time Outfitter remember what you told me over the phone or at the sport show? Yes, Yes I know I made it sound easier than it is but you know how hunting goes. Listen Outfitter I said if I got a lion I was going to sign up for a deer and elk hunt and also get some of my friends to sign up with you. Crackle, Crackle over the radio...breaker Outfitter Number one this Homie #2 and I have a track! Whoopie Fat Cat hunter we are in luck let's go! So they speed around the mountain and pull up where Homie #2 who has been met by i#1,#3 & #4. Are standing along the road pointing at the snow bank. Outfitter jumps out ahead of the Client and run over and looks. $hit ! a little piss headed female! Oh well don't tell lard a$$ there just say it's a good one. Client walks over and looks at it and says man that does look big to me turn them damn dogs loose and let's get on with it. Well sometime later they are standing under the tree the female looking pretty as usual and spitting down at the dogs. Is it a big tom Outfitter asks the client? Well it's a nice lion but I can't really get a good look at it. Well it looks good to me says the client, and whips out his shooter and blazes away. It hits the ground and shrinks but they never let on. Well it is a female but a nice one client and a really nice mount can be made. Ok Outfitter here's you check and a nice tip to boot.

Client gets back on plane and takes off, and Outfitter and Homie breathe a sigh of releif that he is gone and they can pay the rent another month.



And so it goes.......

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Mike
I think your right on on this one. The problem with outfitters in the states is the fact alot of them charge a day rate with a trophy fee when a cat is killed . That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. It makes no sense to me. A hunt is a hunt no matter what species, sometimes you get an animal sometimes you don't. The outfitter would not be in such a hurry to drop a female, if you are paid up front.People that book hunts that way are more concerned about the kill and not the adventure Cougar hunting brings.

[dan kluthe]

Yes, Mike, I expect that comes into it quite a bit. But Jeff, I think it isn't ignorance and I think it is not NM water. Just like all walks of life, we've regretfully got out share of absolute lunatics. Your part of the world has not got a claim to all the lunatics such as the Tucson wacko. Our society is that which has the problem. We've thrown away values and pride and respect and followed Hollywood right down the path of I Matter, I Want It, I Deserve It, I'm the Best, I'm the Prettiest, Me, Me, Me!

[Benny G]

Just a trace of new snow sure can screw up an entire lion season! Looks like Texas will be seeing more and more of me.

[Shorty]

Come on over Benny. I'll meet you on the west side. Maybe we can get Dickerson to join us.

[Benny G]

Shorty, that would be great fun! The Davis mountains would never be the same! It's only been around 23 years since Rick and I made a circle.

[George Streepy]

I don't think it is the water. When we first got our lion hunting back we kept having messed up quotas like that. It has gotten better over the years but we were in an experimental program. It was for just hound guys to start with but then became open to everyone. Hopefully our lion hunting becomes a permanent season but if it is open to everyone I fear there will be more guiding and eventually we will be right back to the same complaints. It is no fun when a few guys close the hunt leaving a dozen plus cats on the quota. Sure does cheat the other hunters.

[bency]

Can still train dogs on bobcats.

[George Streepy]

Not in WA.

[Jeff Shaw NM]

Can still train dogs on bobcats.

Bency, I know i can still hunt bobbers, that dont make it right!!!
Killing all females leads to a grossly messed up population ratio and Quick destruction not sound management...so what happens to the female W/kittens thats left trying to stay away from all the toms? (they don't make it long either!!!)JMO

WISH SOME OF THESE GUYS WERE AROUND IN THE EARLY YEARS (20 OR SO AGO) WHEN YOU HAD TO RIDE FOR 2 WEEKS WITH A GOOD PACK OF HOUNDS, JUST TO GET A BARK!!! Cause thats where were headed back to with this kind of stuff...

[papa]

Maybe the first half of the season needs to be pursuit only...give guys who only hunt for fun a chance. I know of some guys like yourself who will not kill a female as well as some guides who won't let a client kill a female. We need more of those kind! I can't catch anything anyway so I'm no threat either way.

[Mike Leonard]

Jeff,

Welcome to my world//you are right on! After the pillage of a few snow storms there is dang little left. Oh I forgot the state says there is 800 lions in this unit. LOL! Hell if there were 800 mallard ducks out there walking around you would find a runnable duck track every time you went on a circle.


Sound and scientifuly based wild life mgt. backed by proven data. ROFLMAO!

[Benny G]

So Mike, what you're saying is that we could all show up at your house with our duck dogs, and let the fun begin!?

[Mike Leonard]

Benny,

That is correct, and people always ask me why I bring Tuggs my old Chocoloate Lab along when I am lion hunting. I said well as scarce as lion tracks are these days occasionaly we do ride up on a stock pond and he has a great time chasing the ducks and swimming in the muddy water. LOL! Trouble is now he has all them Tans, ticks and spots chasing duck too. Oh well gotta have some fun. LOL!


seriously the way the State has figured out their management matrix numbers and taking into account what is truely considered suitable cougar habitat based on those numbers we should be just about be able to drive a small herd of lions into some catch pens every time we ride a circle. LOL!