training Help

[newbiecoon]

back story is husband got a pup from a friend back in october, him and his friend did a hand full of hide drags then nothin for couple months, then in the last month (pup is 6-7 mnths now) they are going out "coon training" every day almost to get her "turned on". problem is this dude is new to hound training and is basically encouraging his pup/dogs to chase and kill anything that moves everything from cats to skunks, minks,coons, you name it.Is this right? shouldn't they just be focused on coons, and on scent training and tree/den training. Should my husband be running our pup with him or is it going to ruin her. And on top of that we have a whole array of small animals everything from cats to lambs and inbetween. Please help, need advise badly from experienced people here.

[montananative]

Id get my dog away from that guy. I dont know about you but i dont enjoy skunk stench on my dogs, not only that if u teach them to chase anything, it can get bad. Deer races can turn into all night ordeals. You arent having any fun trying to wrangle dogs that are chasing deer for miles and miles. Porcupines are also a BIG problem. Dont know if you have them in your area but id make it a point to break them off porkys too. Ive seen the losing end of a hound/porky fight and it aint pretty.

also, if you ever plan on expanding and getting more dogs, and you start hunting younger dogs with this dog you have now, all your going to have is a pack of trash hunting dogs. I way rather see a coon in a tree than a dog that smells like skunk, looks like a pin coushin, or is chasing deer all night.

[cjohnson1178]

My question is, What do you want out of this dog? Do you want a meet dog or a honest coon dog. Either way tracking should be the foundation of your training then treeing. Treeing is worthless if the dog cant track and killing isn't even something you need to teach a dog. If I had to guess, I would say you already know the answer to your question. Its your dog train it to do what you want it to do. If you want a COON dog train it on coons and coons only. Yes, you will ruin your pup if your not careful unless you wan't a meet dog then go on ahead.

[kordog]

seperate from that training partner as soon as possible. in some ways it may seem that his dog is getting the jump on yours, but stay the course with your intended game and if it is in your pup you will be treeing coons when all he is doing is chasing a dog around all nightmaking these faces

[newbiecoon]

I really appreciate all the responses. they went out to day and let a mink go that they had trapped and let the dogs chase it (they didn't catch it it got into the water under the ice) then i guess they went and tracked a coon and the dogs chased it into its den.(2nd coon) so heres another question... is it proper for the dogs to pull it out of the den and "stretch it out" or just to keep it in the den till you get there, like treeing?
and to finish the story they show up home raving about the coon the dogs got, dogs bleeding all over the place,half a ear missing(dudes dog) so i asked them,where the hide is for training and he said they had ripped the coon apart so bad there was nothing left. Is that normal? cause i always thought the point was to actually come home with a coon in hand.
Also montananative the trash chasing made alot of sense this dudes already lost 2 hounds in the last 4 months hit by cars cause they took off on him one just 4 days ago the sister to our dog. thank goodness our dog at least has some strong obedience or she'd be gone to.Any other advise you guys could give me?

[pegleg]

the truth is if your husband wants to watch dogs fighting what ever they can find it makes little difference what training advice is given. If his intention is a trained coon or big game hound he is off to a piss poor start. there is book upon book of information detailing the training of hounds. if you encourage your hound to hunt everything it will hunt everything and your chance of running across trash tracks are so much higher then a actual game animal you'll seldom tree or bay your target species. there is a reason hounds are trained on select animals its to ensure that is the animal you spend your time hunting. about any breed can be induced to chase and fight. the art is trailing your desired animal until it is treed.
the first thing your husband should familiarize himself with is your states hunting regulations. I will hazard a guess that many of the training and hunting practices undertaken are illegal. a dog encouraged to hunt everything can become a huge liability when it begins harassing and killing other peoples domestic animals. their legal recourse is much greater then your protection at this point. also leaving edible portions of game animals is illegal in many states this can include a wide variety of animals. even if the animals are not covered under this law it will at the very least leave a poor opinion of them in the public and wardens eyes.
This site and others also have in depth training discussions. make a gift of a good training book like "walk with wick" perhaps if he has the maturity and interest to read it completely through he may see his behavior isn't productive and adjust it accordingly.

[newbiecoon]

I have tried explaining this to him and he keeps telling me i'm not gona ruin her "it was just one time, it was just a couple times.She really didn't show any interest in it". I tell him that doesn't matter that he is running her with his dogs she is going to learn from his dogs. don't get me wrong Raccoon is the main target here .Dude is stubborn, my husband even tried to show him this site and dude blew it off as crap opinons. I'v tried to get my husband on this site and he likes it but i think he's torn between doing it right and having a buddy to do it with (anybody in sevier utah!). Also good point pegleg about the edible pieces and regulation i don't think he's even looked into any of that stuff. so ripping the animal up is not standard practice then, don't encourage. so what is standard practice, is what i'm asking, say the dog gets it on the ground(not many trees where they go, private farm land). are the dogs suppose to dispatch it right there? should you pull them off and shoot it? is it right for the dogs to pull it out of the den? or just bay till you get there? Sorry for all the questions i'm just really trying to understand this sport. Can anyone recommend a good dvd, one with the main focus being on tracking he's not much of a reader.

[montananative]

My dogs catcht them on the ground often. I see that as their coon and they get to chew on it and what not and they will kill it. Ive never had them tear a hide apart really bad. My female goes for the thoat, and kills them just a qucik as a .22 will except for a head shot of course.

coondawgs.com has alot of useful training tips. this site is alot of cat bear and other big game hunters. coondawgs, for the most part is coon hunters. LCK has some VERY good traingin articles on that site. Read them there worth alot!

[cjohnson1178]

Catching a coon on the ground happens often. Pulling one out of a den happens sometimes too. Some dogs bay it, some kill it. You don't realy have any control over that. But letting a dog rip a coon to pieces then throwing it in the bushes is just wasteful, and if coon are considered game animals in your state then that is illegal and fish cops don't take wasting game very lightly. Possesing live wild animals is illegal just about everywhere, yes, even coon without the proper permits. If your husband wont read the hunting regulations then it is only a matter of time before he looses his hunting privledges. More dogs get culled not because their bad dogs but because they were mishandled. I'm sorry, it sounds like your in a bad spot here. Maybe you should be your husbands new hunting buddy and tell "Dude" thanks for nothing. That guy is only going to get your husband into trouble. Good luck

[grouse]

In Utah is mink season still in ?

[Unreal_tk]

I would not let my dogs chase trash unless its the first or second time they chase something. I'm new to this game but I know its hard to break a bad habit. I hunt 90% by myself. I've had some help but mostly just me. My dogs are roughly that age and catch game by themselves. If I was you I'd find someone else for him to learn from or even someone to go with him that doesn't have dogs even would be better than the guy he's been going with. But trash ruins dogs IMO and its hard to break once accepted practice. As for dogs ruining a coon, it can happen I've seen but rare. I let mine have some, others are mine and they know it. Mike Leonard training guide will work for coon as well just matter of location of training is all.

I'm still new but that's my opinion.

I'm sure even if no one hunts around you, you could call some of these more experienced players for advice.

[newbiecoon]

thanks guys for all your help, i had a nice long talk with him today and once again tried to make him understand the error of his ways with this guy, so to speak.I think i got through a little more. most apparently our girl let go of the coon when he told her to, it was one of "dudes" problem pups that i guess snatched it back up and ran off and tore it apart and he ended up chasing dudes dog into a smoldering camper. (he's heavy handed with his dogs).
So i stressed the fact that she will eventually pick up on these pups problems and he finally agreed that she needs to be ran and trained by herself more, now whether he does it or not is yet to be seen,but its a start and he wants me to go with him which i don't mind doing if she's treeing (i can only hope it goes that way right). good news is he got some scent and a tail today and is going to do more scent trailing with her, he did it twice in our yard today and she is definetly turned on.
I tried to find hound hunting regulations for utah but couldn't find any that didn't have to do with lion,cat or bear. Can anyone from utah tell me where to find them? i checked Dnr site couldn't find anything. i will check out coondawgs.com, i'v skimmed through it before but i'll give it a better look through.thanks for all the great info guys. hopefully she will continue to be the great dog she is. she's still sleeping on the couch with the cats as i type right now.