Idaho Houndsmen need your help

[hyde]

Dennis your knowledge of what happened in the 90's is just as I remember it. I was in highschool at the time, but in a family that kept me well informed. It still raises my blood pressure thinking of those hard times. Thank you for being one of the men to stand up for my youth, my rights, and my love of this sport at that time. You are a good man.

Now, I had a restless night last night. What do we do? I know that the proposition I will share now might not be popular, but it's been a while since I've ticked any one off. So here she goes.

Giving this site that we've all been writing on, I see that we all agree on a few things . First, we all feel the female quota is set to high. Next, we all want size limitations on the cats being harvested. And finally, we all know that revenue is important to the fish and game, and to the Guides In our state. How about this? We all buy our tags as usual. And in the worst case scinerio, the F&G chooses not to lower the female quotas. O.K. how bout this. If you want to kill a female, come time to check it in, you will pay a fee of $500.00. If you kill a immature male, per say under the age of 4, you will pay $200.00. However, if you harvest a mature Tom that is 5 or older, you just simply fill your tag, and congrads to you!

Then, we ask that the F&G uses half the proceeds to conduct Lion research,and show methods of conservation for them. As for the other half of the money, they can use it as they please.

I believe this will detour many hunters from killing what I would call a baby cat. And if they choose to do so, they can at least pay a price for it. It's simple. It's called conservation. And I believe that conserving my money is always a good option.

[final step]

My old man always told me it takes all kinds to make the world go around. So in my eyes everybody is going to have different opinions on how to make things better so here are a few things my eyes are seeing.Outfitters are quite the business men or women, the outfitter in my area gets on this forum and complains with the best of us yet anything that climbs is climbing for its last time. now i realize not all outfitters are like this so i hope i'm not stepping on any toes here. Next i think hounddude has a very good suggestion going because i know this out of state thing goes on in the area that i'm in as well and if you think its not happening in your area you are mistaken (its a $12.00 permit). I have talked to the field officer about this and unless the Fish and Game can catch them handling dogs theres nothing they can do about it that is if they are with a resident. Dennis Fisher has what i think is a great idea about the size quota and would support something like that all the way. Now im sure there are people who are going to ask how do you know how big the lion is? My response to that question would be if your not sure do not harvest the animal its that plain and simple. All in all i think everybody on here is a great bunch of guys and gals and are hoping to see the big picture turn out in the end.

[Catch]

I want to share my thoughts on this subject. I hunt in the Southern part of Idaho on the Nevada/Utah borders. I have read the comment on the matter and to tell you the truth I don't agree with much. Hound hunters are responsible for the majority of lion kills on paper. Look at the lack of habitat where some are saying the lions have disappeared. It is gone, gone to homes and business. Lions have no place to winter and stay out of reach of man. Idaho has been in a drought for many years, deer numbers have been down for many years. Numbers are coming back and are going to give young lion a helping hand in survival. Trapping takes a lot of smaller cats and not one is ever turned in. It is against the law to kill a lion in a trap, many are shot and disposed of. What about those lions that try to make it with a trap on its foot? Yes lions DO become victims to wolves. Are own State Biologist Dennis Fisher doesn't think so but they do. Not long ago the Phantom Hills Pack killed a lion in Sun Valley, a 1/4 of a mile from a small town. Dennis this is the same pack you got photos of out side of Sun Valley. How many are killed by wolves no one ever sees? No need to cry wolf it is a fact! Outfitters are taking lion for a business and I have no problem with this. I do have a problem if they are taking 25% like some one has mentioned. I have talked to many of lion hunters in this part and none will go along with what has been discussed.

This is how I feel. Putting more restrictions on something has never been for the good. Lowering the quotes will not do a bit of good. Most units don't meet the quota anyway. You can't charge someone extra for a legal kill, that is called discrimination. Opening the doors to changing the rules comes with a huge risk. Every environmental group and the Deer and Elk foundations will be there helping you out. So be careful what you ask for.

This is my advise. First, educate. Ask the Fish and Game to give some history about lions in the proclamation. Second, ask the Outfitter boards to help out. Limit the amount of lions each Outfitter can harvest. Some will say this will destroy thier living, but not the case. If the number of cats outfitters can harvest are lowered, that will only drive up the price of hunts. The outfitters will be happy and less lions killed. Complain to the outfitter board if a outfitter continue to over harvest. It might not be against the law for the outfitter, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Third, some how the trapping world has to turn in trapped cats and put them against the quota. Fourth, I don't care for rules but this one will help with many of the problems. Years ago, hound hunters had to have a tag and hound hunter permit to run dogs. That law has been changed and it should be put back into law. The old law read, if a hunter punched his/her tag, you could no longer pursue in a open take unit. One would have to wait until the quota has been met to pursue again.

Lion hunting will never be what it was 15 years ago. So many thing have changed and not in the favor of the Lion. Maybe, with a little thinking and some common sense we can have lions to hunt for a long time. The sport is growing and people need to be informed what can happen if lions are over harvested. Little help will be offered by the Fish and Game. They don't care, and with thier own money problems they are going to care even less. Idaho is a Maximum predator kill rate and only the guys responsible for the death of lions can help the population.

I can't speak for for all on this end of the state, but if a plan is put in place and it benefits all, and the lion, the plan will most likely be supported. We are all happy and like it the way it is and will not support anything that is just a bunch of garbage.

For all those hunters that live in the heavy populated towns against mountains. The only advise I can give is move, it is only going to get worse. Just don't move this way!

Take Care and good luck!

[hyde]

In response to your post Catch, I would first like to tell you that I respect your opinion, and have no intention to be-little it. However, I just don't agree.

First, telling me to turn to the Outfitter boards, is like asking me to put my health care in Obama's hands. Since when has history shown that outfitters would be happy with taking less game? I am very confident that the answer to that question is never. I'm speculating that you are either an outfitter, or one that tags along.

Next, you proclaim that lowering the female quota's will do no good because we don't meet them anyway. Um, isn't that a sign that they are set to high? If we reach a quota that at least gets us close to meeting the numbers then we've reached a level that has the bubble in the middle, not a quota that is off to one side killing off all of the female cats.

Now I am also a wolf hater, please don't misunderstand that. However, it makes me wonder how all these wolves are killing the cats, yet my pack of hounds tree them. I suppose cats don't climb trees with in the company of wolves, their just intimidated by Redbones.

Moving on, you state that you can't charge someone for a legal kill, because that's discrimination. Gee, are our guides in this state illegal? Are these the people I should follow? They've been making money on Idaho's wildlife for years.

Next, you state that the F&G dosn't care. Not good publicity my friend. You talked about being careful for what you ask for well let's get to the facts. Regardless of your opionions of that orginization, they are the care takers. Without their support, we have nothing. They are the people that are in charge of our Game animals. They are the ones that are here to conserve Idaho's game. I don't agree with a lot of what they are doing right now in regards to the cougar, but I will keep turning to them to find support. They are the ones intrusted by Idaho, not your Guides.

[tiny42]

Sad day cut 5 different canyons today spread out over they county and not a single track.

[Catch]

Hyde,

No i'm not a outfitter or one that tags along. We don't have problems with outfitters in these parts, they are all good outdoors man. I'm just a hound hunter that hunts with dogs. I go hunting every day and enjoy the outdoors, I even might tree a cat from time to time. I gave some ideas to what has happened and what needs to happen to correct the problem. I never said these things must be completed and the lions would appear. You can take my post however you like, but you are wrong on most of it. As far as the fish and game being the people you are going to turn for help. Who do you think set the quota? The fine people at the fish and game with the help of the deer and elk foundations. You don't have their support, that is why you have no lions. The fish and game manage check books not game. What ever you do, leave this part of the state out of it. We don't need it and we don't want it.

Take care and good luck in your task!

[hounddude]

I think if we could get the change I've posted above it would make a huge difference.

Also have to be there at start of hunt to harvest.

Have a cut off date for tags or a 5 day period before tags valid.

Some area's probably should be a draw for tags?

[Dennis Fisher]

Catch, On page 77, 78 of that survey is the results for the Oakley, Magic Valley Region from 2004 to 2006. It shows the females percentage went from 52 to 38, to the good. It shows 80% of the cats were taken by Houndsman. 14% incidental. It shows 41% of the cats taken were from 3 to 7 years of age. O were taken over 7 years of age. 59% of the cats taken were classed has kittens, being 2 years of age and under. Didn't look any further when I saw that 59% of the cats killed still had milk on their lips. With that, it would seem to me that there's some major problems in that Region. Glad they aren't bothering or effecting you though.

Hounddude, great idea about the cut off date and validation time.

[Catch]

Thank you for the data. I remember 2004-2005 & 2006, I caught a lot of lions those years. I don't recall how many deaths I was involded in, can you tell me ole wise one? There must not be a population problem if all these lions are being killed. Remember, this is 2011 not 2006, so worry about what is happening today not yesterday. Further more, let the lion hunters figure this out, they are the ones that know all about the lion population. This matter does not concern you, you haven't been hunting for so long you do not have clue. Load your dogs, go lion hunting 40-50 days a season for 10 years, and them come and report. Go cause problems else where, we are trying to figure this mess out!!

[larry]

Now I am also a wolf hater, please don't misunderstand that. However, it makes me wonder how all these wolves are killing the cats, yet my pack of hounds tree them. I suppose cats don't climb trees with in the company of wolves, their just intimidated by Redbones.

Apparently your hounds haven't ever caught a kitten on the ground? You really think wolves don't partake in lion cub tug of war? Do you think it might be possible for a lion to stay on the ground and try to defend a kill from coyotes, or maybe even wolves? I don't think a pack of wolves come bawling over the mountain hot on a lion and jump it like hounds do, circumstances are probably very different, and so are the documented results. C'mon dude.

[meowhunter]

I think we do need some lower quotas. I saw that they are going to change and try to manage the quotas on a smaller unit basis. I would love to see ever cat that gets shot be a mature tom, but thats not the case. I do not support the restrictions that hound dude stated about having to have a permit to even go. Why cant i take my friends and family with me whenever i want, and to limit it to getting a permit for immediate family, i have cousins and friends i would rather take than close family. Also looking for hounds that is dumb, so someone who finds a lost dog cant grab it or they will get a ticket? Also some guy is snowmobiling and stops to look at a track, and he gets a ticket? I would be in support of a draw though.

[Dennis Fisher]

"Ol wise one, enjoyed that one. Just about old enough to retire and buy a lifetime hunting license and go hunt and live anywhere I wish and never have to worry about getting a houndsman permit again. Just has many out of Stater's are doing here, now. Except, now it's just about my turn to go to their State and enjoy what they do also.

Wise enough to know that if you wish to put forth your opinion on a subject on these Internet Sites, do it before all those that our causing the problem start the name calling, topic changing trying to "justify" a unjustifiable action. When you "young bucks" that do hunt ethically get tired of the BS, see ya in a meeting organized by the Houndsman of the State to once again protect the sport we each cherish so much.

If not, your doomed!!! I'm "wise" enough to know the anti's will NEVER stop. They are coming again, guaranteed. Wise enough to know that our sport undoubtedly and surely is in the hands of the power of the vote of the people of this State. Over 50%, close to 60%, of that vote is of the female gender. These actions of "baby (kitten) killing" CANNOT be defended. Neither by argument of fair chase, nor argument of a need for "baby killing". Your hunting in this manor has not a prayer of survival if this is allowed to continue, whether it be for bear or cat. I guarantee that the anti's know what the results of those studies, and what has or hasn't been taken and how, far better than any of us obviously do. You can ask the F&G to do their job and help prevent all this, but first you better have a solution. Their solution, if you do not participate, you may definitely not like either.

Nuff Said!!!

[Catch]

The sky is falling in the sky is falling in! So scary Dennis, thank you. I know that 100% of us know what the opposing team is up to. You don't have to be very wise to figure that out. The laws in this State are there for a reason Dennis. They are there to protect the way of life we all enjoy. They are there to keep outside opinions out. If you would take ten minutes and try to understand the structure and who is responsable for it, you might get the message. I live around many that swing a big bat in Idaho government. I know them well, and why they do what they do. It is not always about me, me, me, it is about a way of life. Learn the big picture, leave things the way they are and educate those involved. Changing laws will do nothing other than lose some of what you have. You can babble on all you like about lions and lion hunting.

I have been all over the U.S. Van Buren Maine is a nice to live!

[hyde]

Larry, you have a very good point. That is something I was not taking into consideration. I should probebly just stand corrected, as what you said makes perfect sense......Dude.

[longtailrunner]

Here in Colorado,we have lots of females.About 5-6 years ago we were threatened by the anti's with a ballot measure for too high of a female take,one year was 57%.We started a volunteer reduction of female take. The first year,it was only 32%.Last year,the female take was 38%. Most guys are good about leaving the females in the tree.We have the most problems with the illegal outfitters and the unethical outfitters who are just in the sport for the pay check.The lion populations have really rebounded quickly.