Idaho Houndsmen need your help

[Mikes Hero]

As usual, this post has turned into a plott owner pissing match.

Aside from that, it looks like we all agree that something needs to be done. Can we all agree that we need to approach the IDFG and request that they lower the quota's?

[fly]

In the unit i hunt the most i beleive the lion per game number is about right the deer numbers are down but making a gain. i dont know what you guys think they are going to eat when the big game pop is down due to drought and or other preditors such as wolves. If there is not enough food they leave starve or get into trouble for being in livestock. Just because the idfg sets a quota doesnt mean you need to smoke a female to make sure each unit gets closed... I for one could close this unit in a week if I didnt respect the game. Most people that complain can point the finger at themselves for the situation they are in.

[IDpete]

Went to the proposal meeting for my area last night. It was informative and we got a lot of questions answered, not all to our liking, but hey. They have proposed to split the 22 female quota over the whole south east region which is a start IMO.
The F&G uses the Mule Deer initiative as their sole reason for lack of interest in managing lions for the sporstman/houndsman even though they admit that their predator studies prove that complete removal of predators in most instances is not even measurable in the deer population. The F&G stated that they are not, and will not manage for any type of age class and they are managing for a slight decline in population.
As long as greater than 25% of the harvest is adult females they will continue this way. I believe the current numbers are at 36% adult females and 55% overall females. a lot of the cats harvested are in that kitten/2year old class.
There were 5 houndsmen in attendance which was about 1/3 of the people there.
Keep letting them know we want changes and hopefully we can change someones mind.

[fly]

I forgot to add If there is only one lion left in this state there will be catch and oren one pack of plotts and one pack of walkers hot on its trail just because they like being in the woods every one else will be complaining...

[bearcrplotts]

I don't look on this site often, and rarely post. From what I've read on this thread it seems most of, if not all the input has come from the Southern portion of the state, where quota's do exist. Here in the Northern part it's a free for all, no quota's. We're basically left to manage ourselves. Where some have the attitude of "If I don't kill it someone else will" exists. It only takes a small minority of this thinking to constitute total non-management. The same attitude exists where quota's are present for sure, but the only difference is there is a limit to those that choose to not manage themselves.
I'd like to think that we could manage ourselves, but that's a pipe dream, full of crack.
The only reason the far Northern portion of the state has any Lions left is due to sound management in MT to the East, no Lion season (to speak of) in WA to the West and very little pressure on the cats to the North in BC. They all feed us cats.
To initiate a quota up here now would never get the support from houndsmen or IDFG. We've actually been talking about one of the suggestion's that was brought up earlier in this thread up here. Paying for killing a female/sub. This would fly with IDFG because it invloves $, in their pocket. But would it get support from the majority of us? I don't know. The other option we have kicked around is when a female is harvested by a tagholder, the tagholder has to wait one season before he/she can purchase another lion tag. I believe we could get the support from the houndsmen here, but it may take $ away from IDFG, so I doubt they would back it. $ drive's it all in the end, no matter what the issue.
I believe Hayden and his cronies already have their minds set for any changes, wich are none, for the Panhandle. But if anyone else form this area has any suggestions, lets hear them.

I'm not going to argue that wolves may kill some cats, they do for sure. But I believe the % could be comparable to roadkill incidents, fairly minute to the big picture, and predator, ourselves. As a rule predators don't prey on other predators, unless there is an extreme inbalance of predator vs prey or one predator species is totally overpopulated and preys on it's own. CA is a prime example and I've seen it first hand with their cats. We definetly don't have that inbalance with our cats.

This pic came in a recent email. Not sure if this is internet BS or not. You Southern guys may know. Supposed to have happened in the Garden Valley area.
Lion killed the wolf then treed with the wolf laying almost under the tree it was in, so they say in the email I got.
If it's true I'm sure the wolf kill by a lion is just as minute as a lion kill by a wolf.

[Dennis Fisher]

Great posts guys!!! Obviously there's enough concern from most to get this situation solved.

bearcrplotts, got the same e-mail and was told it was taken up north by one of you guys. Where ever it was taken, I hope that someday those that are taking the kittens will learn that if they just wait a few years, this type of cat can be what's on your wall instead of one that still has spots. Sure would of liked to see that wolf/cat fight though. Bet it didn't last long.

[imchestnut]

Damn lions, killing all our wolves!

What is lion population density per square mile? Isn't the south eastern Idaho unit with the female quota of 22 almost 5000-6000 square miles?

There is one rule that would solve this hole thing. No sleds or atvs allowed to aid lion hunting in south eastern Idaho. If you can't/aren't allowed to drive it in a pickup, you can walk it or ride it on a horse or not hunt. I bet you would see the lion harvest numbers drop to less than half of what they are not in one year (if Fish and Game and houndsmen respected it that is, which most of the people don't down here already....). Cheap solution, problem solved right?

[Catch]

Nothing wrong with trying. It will be a next to impossible task to get a change in law. Like I have stated, make the changes that suites for that area. I'm not for change in this part of the state, and 99% are not interested either. I already know how the Deer/Elk foundations are going to react and you will end up with less than you have. The best way is some form of education.

Good luck in your task!

[hyde]

Mikes Hero, Yes I agree female quota's need to be lowered state wide. I support that. I have talked with a biologist, and a commissioner this week. I'm hoping to get some answers soon. Good job for attending those meetings Idpete. If we keep voicing our opinions, I feel something will eventually get done.

Fly, I agree, and you seem to be one of the responsible ones out there. If you have the respect for the sport I believe you have, please consider supporting a lower female quota. If you hunt an area, that you believe you could close that quickly, someday people are going to show up, and do it for you. Get a lower quota now, and you will keep your cats.

bearcrplotts, I am glad to see someone support paying $ For killing females, and baby Tom's. I know that this proposal will reduce the amount of females/youg males killed, and help the population out tremendously. It also provides revenue to the F&G, wich we know will make them listen.

By the way, the picture you posted, I know two of the men in that picture. It is real, and was taken in unit 39. I know the story I heard is when they got to the tree the cat was in, off to the side was a kill, with the dead wolf lying next to it. Hmmm, that's the story I heard. This one is a nice cat, I don't know why they don't post pictures of all the cats they kill. Any cat that climbs a tree for those guys is dead meat.

I'mchestnut. I have been fighting A.t.v's for the aid of big game hunting since day one. I personally believe that they have played a huge factor in the decrease in Elk and deer populations, and it really ticks me off to see all the damage they've caused to our great state. I do use snowmobiles to access remote areas. But they don't tear up the land, and I use them ethically. One couldn't walk, or ride a horse into the area I have to go into these days , just to find a cat. I believe the true way to bring the cat population up, is to start shooting them with a camera, not a gun.

Catch, I am not sure where you came up with the statistic that 99% of the houndmen in your area don't agree with us, but O.K.??? You've made it clear that you don't want any changes in your area, and that is your right to feel that way. I want changes so my little boy will have the opportunity to share this sport with his kids. If that means changes state wide, so be it! I do agree that we need to educate, and I am constantly expressing my concerns, and begging fellow houndmen to turn the babies loose. I believe that we share a statistic. 99% of them do not give a crap. That is why I want to see changes, it's not to ruin the sport, it's to conserve it.


Thanks, and God Bless.

[idahohunter]

I like some of the ideas I'm reading. Some of them aren't really practical. I wouldn't be for anything that would in any way further limit the amount of time available to legally chase cats even if they can't be killed. Idaho houndsmen need to pick one or two ideas and back them up.

I do think imchestnut is on to something though. Why not just make sleds and atv's illegal for chasing lions? It would clearly limit the amount of lions killed. (This seems to be the biggest issue.) It wouldn't limit the amount of time you could be out in the mountains chasing cats. It wouldn't cost the state tag money that they would lose if they initiated a limited draw system for tags. I think that it is a legit solution. It likely wouldn't get much support because of enough people saying, "well I need those to catch cats." I'm very inexperienced and new to this, but I think if houndsmen don't come together with a solution that F & G will back then we won't get anywhere. Obviously just saying "there aren't enough lions" isn't working.

[tiny42]

I really like the idea of paying up if you kill a female, I really think that would slow the kill anything that trees down. not so much for the rule of no atvs that would leave me with 3 canyons to cut and its already hard enough to find a lion track these days

[BEARCLAW]

Its not that hard to keep a lion pop in check. The problem is the fish and game dont want to. I dont think we want to shorten seasons or place restrictions on how we hunt. That would haunt us for the rest of your life. I think we are just going to have to let it run its course. Every thing in nature cycles. Low deer pop equal low cat eventually and high deer pop equal high cat pop eventually. In the mean time we can try to edjucate our neighbor the best we can. Take a young kid hunting and help teach them some ethics and respect for the game.

The only change I would support would be a lower female lion quota. When that limit was reached it would switch over to pursuit only for the rest of the season.

[Mikes Hero]

After seeing the input on thise post I thought that I would atleast see some "houndsmen" at the IDFG meeting last night. As usual, houndsmen are only good at running their mouth, and not very good at implementation. Thanks for your support last night guys.....

[hyde]

Mikes Hero, you are correct, more of us should have been there to support something that we can all agree on. I just don't know what that is. I agree with what you and I have discussed, and that is lowering the quota's. FYI, I have talked with 2 commissioners, and two biologists several times over the last few weeks. I also wrote a letter. Through experience, I chose not to attend the meetings because the Elk and deer hunters will have no part in protecting the Cats. It just turns into a hound hunter massacre.

You are correct in the fact that most of the people are just a bunch of talk. That is true in any form of sport, hobby, lifesyle, etc. I appologize for not being there, it was something that I considered, but if you'll look back at my earlier posts on this subject, I was following advice to look at other options, to get the F&G to listen, and not take abuse from the public that won't support us.

I was talking with a guy just the other day, that said we need to kill more cats, cause where he Elk hunts, he saw 4 cats in 1 drainage last year. I know the guy, and I'll bet he's never walked 200 yards in his life! That's the kind of bologne that appears in those meetings, that is why I didn't show.

If we, as ethical houndsmen, that want to save this sport can come up with a solution that we can all agree on, and show in numbers, count me in, cause I promise you, I'm not all talk!

God Bless, TRAVIS

[bearcat]

I agree with bearclaw, the only change I would support would be a lower female quota. Where I live there are no quotas and many of the houndmen complain about people killing all the lions off, they also complain about people killing all the bobcats adn that they can't find any cats. Most of the people doing the complaining don't get out more than half a dozen times a winter and never unload a snowmachine, much less actually get out and walk. Up here in northern idaho your only going to find a few cats if all you do is run the plowed roads in perfect conditions. We do have a low lion population up here, we definitly do not have a low bobcat population. But "houndsmen" that don't hunt want to restrict everybody else's hunting opportunities just because they are jealous.
We may have a low population but I could kill a large mature tom every year if I wanted to. I have only ever killled one lion myself, but have let a few other people kill nice toms at times, but if they are going to kill a lion in front of my dogs I am pretty picky and only let people I like and that have put enough time and effort in hunting with me that I think they deserved it kill one. Point being that houndsmen should police their own not ask for more restrictions. There have only ever been 3 female lions killed to my dogs and only one of those in the last 10 years. It was caught in a rock hole and was chewing dogs to pieces. Not only was there not time to check the sex but if it would have been in female quota area it would have been just as dead.

Like I said I won't support any proposals that reduce our hunting opportunities, because it is a lot easier to lose them than ever get them back. But I was at a local hound club meeting and this was brought up when a game warden came to talk to the club, and some were supporting a female quota while others were just complaining about the lack of the lions. The game warden stated bluntly in plain language that because the game dept was unable to manage the wolves the bears and lions were the only large predators that they could manage and that there would be NO reductions in harvest opportunitys for them until they were allowed to manage the wolves .