People that either don't know or can't sex a lion kill them over the season and are proud of their harvest. Some of those people never take or hunt again, but they have great memories of their experience even though it wasn't a monster tom. By making a "tom only unit" what do you propose we do with people who make a mistake and take a female?
Presently, Utah slaps a felony charge on an illegal harvest but often times allows them to plead down to a Class A misdemeanor and give them a healthy fine, then take their license for five to seven years. Are those the charges we plan to enforce on a person mistaking a female for a tom lion? It's pretty easy to see antlers on a buck and tell that it is a buck, but even some of the guides like Big Horn made a mistake on this one. Is that where we should go with protecting the population, remove people from the sport who make a mistake?
Maybe if you can't tell the differance you shouldn't be hunting?
Some guys run Hounds to hunt Lions and Bears.... I hunt Lions and Bears so I can run Hounds!
i would say sexing a cat is no harder than sexing a buffalo? if i am correct buffalo hunts are bull only hunts? what happens if a mistake is made on this hunt? cats may not be as night and day as deer or elk but easy enough i dont think they would be unrealistic to make tom only units. id be double sure i carried binos if i had plans to harvest!
So it sounds like many of us are ready to throw others under the bus so we can have more lions to run or bragging size toms to kill. Aren't you worried that turning fellow hounddoggers into outlaws is an elevation animal rights and somewhat of a victory for anti-hunters? The good Lord knows that many people outside our sport would love to do that.
By the way, I'm playing the devil's advocate here and attempting to sort through what is best for the lions and the hunters. If any of you are serious about a trophy unit you should look closely at what you expect to gain from these units and what the costs will be to opportunity. Personally I believe this debate over bitch killing is a good one and may well give food for thought to some before they pull the trigger. However, I don't support a law that will ban bitch killing by sportsman and not ban bitch killing by the Department of Agriculture and UDWR.
its called the good old internet, it will make ya famous, in the old days you had to hunt alot to become famous, now all you have to do is type about it.
J.C. Call wrote:Dead female lions are not very impressive, they look much better alive. However, ranchers and outfitters are not the devil, like they're being portrayed here.
I dont remeber seeing anyone right on here that ranchers were the devil for having females killed. This is not a discussion about females being killed over depredation. this is a discussion about people going out and killing female after female without reguard. It is about calling those people out in hope that some peer pressure will make them think twice next time they think they are all alone and can get away with killing our natural resources. I dont think anyone would complain if it was just one female. but when multiple people come out and know of multiple kills within a short period of time that is a problem. It is obvious that the fish and game does not support having a lion population in Utah. As hunters our main defense against the antis is the conservation argument. Yet we shoot ourselves in the foot by overharvesting lions then say it is ok because it is legal.. Want to see it become ILLEGAL keep it up and then none of us will be able to enjoy it. Alot of the guys doing it have been hunting lions for 20-30 years. then gloat that us who are new to the sport are just complaining becasue we are not as good as they are. Id like to be doing this 30 years from now but the way its going right now ill be lucky to get 5 more years in. so much for conservation.
If the state wants a certain number of females killed, and hunters wont do it, they will hire it done. It wont take long for them to realize they dont need sportsmen.the government dont give a shit if they pay to have it done,they rise the price on deer and elk tags to cover the cost.Before fish and game will change the regs for tom only units they will hold public meetings,the tree huggers will jump all over it,then you wont be running or killin any lions or bears in utah,the usda will do it for you.If you dont wont to kill females,dont kill them, calling those that do out on the internet aint going to do any good,i never meet anyone that got into houndhuntin to make friends.So runnem till ya cant runnem no more, they will take it away before you run out of cats.
I haven't got into this as it started out being a utah houndsmen post mostly. but run them until you can't run them any more. it'll be outlawed before you run out? I doubt that it doesn't take many houndsmen pounding a area killing what ever they catch before that area is out of cats sure it may have one or two wondering around but I don't think thats what anyone really wants.
I never said kill every thing you tree,but if hunters dont kill some females,usda will be glad to,there number one goal is females and kittins in oregon,,they leave em to rot,i would rather see them go to a hunter then a crow.
Larry Roberts wrote:If the state wants a certain number of females killed, and hunters wont do it, they will hire it done. It wont take long for them to realize they dont need sportsmen.the government dont give a shit if they pay to have it done,they rise the price on deer and elk tags to cover the cost.Before fish and game will change the regs for tom only units they will hold public meetings,the tree huggers will jump all over it,then you wont be running or killin any lions or bears in utah,the usda will do it for you.If you dont wont to kill females,dont kill them, calling those that do out on the internet aint going to do any good,i never meet anyone that got into houndhuntin to make friends.So runnem till ya cant runnem no more, they will take it away before you run out of cats.
Larry Roberts wrote:If the state wants a certain number of females killed, and hunters wont do it, they will hire it done. It wont take long for them to realize they dont need sportsmen.the government dont give a shit if they pay to have it done,they rise the price on deer and elk tags to cover the cost.Before fish and game will change the regs for tom only units they will hold public meetings,the tree huggers will jump all over it,then you wont be running or killin any lions or bears in utah,the usda will do it for you.If you dont wont to kill females,dont kill them, calling those that do out on the internet aint going to do any good,i never meet anyone that got into houndhuntin to make friends.So runnem till ya cant runnem no more, they will take it away before you run out of cats.
That's saying it like it is Larry.
Read Utah's Management Plan for cougars, the target that they set is an 18-20% female harvest. For the last 3 years we have been well over a 40%. Tom only units will not happen but we should all be calling for female sub quotas.
All utah houndsmen, Glad to see alot of pissed and concerned houndsmen in utah. I dont care what tactics get people talking. Educating the next generation, 4000 plus views to this subject is better than the young guy readin any trophy hunting mag that will paint the picture as lion "the destroyer of utah's mule deer".... Keep up the conversation!!!!!
I am a board member of the Utah Houndsmen Assn. We have been battling with the udwr for over 6 years on lions, the down trend and overharvest in this state. We have asked for female sub-quotas, trophy units, tom only units and countless other options. The only response we have ever got is not until the deer herd recovers and we HAVE to protect the sheep units.
In the next few weeks you might want to tune in to "roughin it outdoors" and the salt lake tribune they are both doing stories on lion hunting and populations.See for yourself what the public thinks of OUR SPORT!!!!
The UHA has been invited to represent the houndsmens views. If you are not a member you might think about joining, even if you dont like somebody involved as we continue to defend OUR SPORT!!!!
Asking the udwr to ethically defend our lion population is insane. As we just had the director reopen 6 units for additional lion harvest in an EMERGENCY order????
15 years of aggressive lion management and the deer herd is STILL IN THE DUMP!!!!
Once again we must educate the next generation and try to police our own. Good luck!!!!!
Timothy good job think how many cats were saved just by all this drama!!! My father-in-law taught me ethics not all guys have that positive influence. I HATE to stop and talk with a new guy in the canyon , but who will teach the ethical way???
You guys really want your lion numbers up black eye you probably should look at ways to eliminate the coyote. Reducing the bitch killing will surely help but bringing back the deer will allow you to get DWR on your side. Maybe you should be looking at ways to earn money for coyote removal or teach some of those hounds to run down and kill yotes.
In june I have had hounds for 20 years. I now hunt only lion I have never killed one tom or bitch. I have nothing against taking a client for a big tom that helps the population, anyone killing little females to a hunter has no pride in their business no matter what they say that is not a trophy. If they are killing stock that is one thing and needs to be handled accordingly, but for a greedy outfitter to just murder like crazy is total bullshit and it happens every chance they get. I know there is a taxidermist here with a 67 pound lion to mount, so some idiot shot it, some idiot caught it and some idiot warden tagged it without giving a ticket. I am totally for this post if it is a bitch with or without kittens killing stock hey get them gone, I am all for farmers and ranchers I was raised one. For everyone killing bitches with or without kittens I hope for your sake they don't give douche bag tags or you will all be in trouble.
