female killers

Talk about Cougar Hunting with Dogs
timothy
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Re: female killers

Post by timothy »

tod watterson wrote:No outfitter wants to have to tell anybody they sent a client home empty handed so they kill whatever they can catch as a general rule.Around here that means the first track they find cause ther ain't many tracks . Gotta keep their stats up.



That is no excuse, If you are a outfitter you of all people should understand conservation. If it takes you forever to find a track then you finnaly do and it is a female, how the hell can you justify killing it. It makes no sense from any stand point other than greed. What are you going to do next year when you cannot find a track in that area or it takes twice as long, oh wait just move to a new area and tell the locals F off right?
tod watterson
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Re: female killers

Post by tod watterson »

Timmy, If you've read any of my posts you'd know i don't condone killing females.First i'm not a guide or an outfitter.I was just stating one of the reasons i beleive outfitters try to justify the killing of females.I was also pointing out that it's not just them.I've seen a hundred new guys get started in hounds ,kill a few lions, then quit cause they can't find anything to run anymore.If it's just the outfitters that quit killing females, and everybody else keeps on doing it ,it wont 'help anything.
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Re: female killers

Post by Sackett »

tod watterson wrote:I was also pointing out that it's not just them.I've seen a hundred new guys get started in hounds ,kill a few lions, then quit cause they can't find anything to run anymore.If it's just the outfitters that quit killing females, and everybody else keeps on doing it ,it wont 'help anything.


You're right on the money tod. It's easy to blame others or outfitters but as you seem to know the problem goes across the board and the pleasure hunters or newbies are as big a problem as any guides I know.
timothy
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Re: female killers

Post by timothy »

Todd, Im sorry I thought my post would be misread but I didnt have time to edit it. That was intended towards guides, not that I was calling you out as a guide. The "you" part was a general statement about guides. I hope this clears up my intentions.
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Re: female killers

Post by HoundDawg »

It's pretty tough to make "blanket" type of statements because I know every state is somewhat different, and to be honest even Utah is different depending on the areas you're hunting. I have some buddies in So. Utah and they don't struggle as hard to find lions as we do here. I know some buddies that hunt areas with large chunks of private, almost the entire mountain... and they find a lot more lions to run because of all the private, locked up country. So every area is a bit different, but there is no question the overall picture of lion hunting in Utah is much bleaker than many would have you think, and the data backs that up.

One thing we deal with here, and we call it the BS Factor. This might seem somewhat harmless but I don't believe it is, and I think it explains partially why so many people are still convinced lions are a problem. It's the Bullshit that hound guys are spewing. There are a number of guys in this area, for whatever reason, that are incapable of admitting, "Hey, I didn't cut a lion or I ran one and didn't catch it." They just can't do it. It's like admitting they aren't a man or something.

So instead of what really happened, you get a huge BS story... what we call the BS Factor. And look no further than this website for ample examples of what I mean. Recently a friend of mine ran into a kid in the store and he was telling a group of guys he knew, "Ya I cut 5 mature lions all crossing together up the canyon this morning." Talking about a quota unit that has been hammered into submission and this guy is boasting to them about cutting 5 big lions together and how he caught 4 of the 5 or some damn thing. What do you think this group of deer hunters does when they hear this? They freak of course... and how fast does that word travel around? Faster than VD in a Wisconsin Bear camp!!

I've heard another guy around here tell a group of deer hunters, "Yup, I cut 12 lions in one canyon there on Timp." You could hear the audible gasps. Part of the reason there are so many people around here who still think lions are a huge problem is because of all the BULLSHIT stories a bunch of these hound guys are telling...

About all the lions they are catching, two or three every time they go out and they can't wait to brag it up to all their neighbors, co-workers, whatever... "Yup, caught 3 lions this weekend." There is a hound guy in this country and I've never know him to go out and not catch a lion. But I know people who have been with him multiple times, and never seen one in a tree... but I've still never known him to not catch a lion every trip out. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Problem is, all this BS is getting into the deer community and I hear it all the time, "Well, my neighbor is a hound guy and he's caught 35 lions this winter just hunting on Saturday. He cuts 5 or 6 every time he goes out." So when deer hunters are hearing these wild tales from hound guys, what are they supposed to think?

I guess everybody wants to be a hero and a legend, but the BS Factor around here sure does a lot of damage to our cause. Those stories about 5 lions together, like a pack of wolves on the kill... and the canyons so full of lion tracks they didn't know which one to run... that stuff spreads like wildfire around here and does way more damage than good. I hear it all the time, "Oh you didn't catch one? Well a guy I work with caught 7 lions this weekend, you must be in the wrong spot. No wonder there is no deer left." :( :( :(

And every time deer comes up, these guys are quick to re-tell the story to all their buddies, "A guy I work with catches about 45 or 50 lions a year right here behind the house, no wonder we ain't got any deer left. They eat 3 deer a week ya know." And they all grumble and go bitch about lions to their RAC or anyone else that will listen.

BS Factor... and I can't speak for your area, but we got it BAD around here. :D
bob baldwin jr
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Re: female killers

Post by bob baldwin jr »

hounddawg: Sounds like they are " LEGENDS in their OWN MINDS " :lol: We got a few guys around here that put up Bear and Bobbers EVERY TIME THEY go out :oops:
vaughndog
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Re: female killers

Post by vaughndog »

im not much of a typer, so thankyou Hounddawg for saying what was on my mind and im sure many others, please hounddoggers lets lose some of our egos and pull together a little bit and help out this sport we love so much, 15 and 20 years ago it was pretty much lion catching, the last 7 or 8 yrs more lion hunting, not so many catches, lets be honest with ourselves and others and not hurt our sport any more than sfw allready does. If we are not part of the solution, then we are part of problem, this post has turned out to be good afterall, thanks to all the contributions!
Bearkiller
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Re: female killers

Post by Bearkiller »

Yeah, I have to agree. This is probably the longest post that hasn't resorted to name calling and posting obscene pictures of body parts.
Don't buy the hype.

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Kevin D
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Re: female killers

Post by Kevin D »

Bearkiller wrote:Yeah, I have to agree. This is probably the longest post that hasn't resorted to name calling and posting obscene pictures of body parts.


Yuh Dawg, how come you left out the body parts pictures??
Yard Dog
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Re: female killers

Post by Yard Dog »

Sackett wrote:You're right on the money tod. It's easy to blame others or outfitters but as you seem to know the problem goes across the board and the pleasure hunters or newbies are as big a problem as any guides I know.


"Pleasure hunters" as big a problem (killing females) as any guide?

What your smoking aint store bought.
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houndnem
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Re: female killers

Post by houndnem »

most of the hound guys I know that have been in it any legnth of time have lost the need to pump up their egos by adding imaginary catches to their story. Once you do it enough times everybody knows you can catch a lion so why pump it up to be bigger than life? I have seen some younger rookie guys startin out that are that way. but most lion hunters that have done it very long feel that the lion population here in utah is poor and they're not afraid to make it known. just like eveybody on this thread, I don't think they're down at the coffee shop boasting about herds of lions runnin around. I really feel for you guys up north. sounds like a real clown show up there.
every time I run into one of these deer hunters telling me how they see a lion track everywhere they go I tell them," I'll give you a crisp hundred dollar bill for every runnable lion track you call me with. needless to say my phone never rings with this and especially after I show them the difference between a coyote or dog track and a legit lion track. :wink:
also I really do belive that the pleasure hunter or the guy taking his neighbor for some gas money kills more than the guides dream of killing. jmo
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Re: female killers

Post by Sackett »

I believe that it was the coffee shop hunters that killed all those lions, starting with the hunters of old right through the ones setting at the tables now. Not only do those coffee shop drinkers catch lots of lions, some of the greats use to bring those lions for coffee as well. The great Milt Holt was from southern Utah and was well known for bringing his pet lion with him to the old Dick's Cafe, and that surely turned lots of head back in the day. For whatever reason, however, I did not see his name mentioned among the great hunters of old post.

Any of you boys heard of him? or of Dick's Cafe? Hearsay is that he sold that lion to Walt Disney.
cat and bear
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Re: female killers

Post by cat and bear »

HoundDawg wrote:What do you think this group of deer hunters does when they hear this? They freak of course... and how fast does that word travel around? Faster than VD in a Wisconsin Bear camp!!


Hounddawg, not to change the subject, you sure talk about having knowledge of spooning, vd, and other things I'm scared to ask, about things that happened in your out of state bear camp,and tent, back here in WI. :shock: :shock: I've never met you or seen you in the woods back here, just wondering, if you were run out of here, for those activities, or Doctors orders, for you to stay closer to home :?: :lol: :lol:
bob baldwin jr
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Re: female killers

Post by bob baldwin jr »

Cat and Bear : I think I saw a Report on him in the monthly Publication Deer / Bear /Hound newsletter this is ONE bad dude . Please lockup your wives and Girlfriends and hounds when HE is around . I think he is also PROHIBITED from even coming into the state of Maine :lol:
Nolte
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Re: female killers

Post by Nolte »

cat and bear wrote:Hounddawg, not to change the subject, you sure talk about having knowledge of spooning, vd, and other things I'm scared to ask, about things that happened in your out of state bear camp,and tent, back here in WI.

"Good decisions come from experience. A lot of experience comes from making bad decisions"

I thought this quote says it best. :D
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