track minded dogs.

[DC DOGGIN]

What is your thoughts or experiences with "track minded" dogs. Reason being, i have a young gyp a little over a year old. She is really track minded she is 1/4 trigg and 3/4 walker. I have been trying to pay alot of attention to the way she runs track and what she does on a loose. She is not very tree minded, it took her a while to even tree at all and she has been to many a tree. Alot at night. She will tree better when she can see the game or when she sees it go up. She wants to wander away and look for a track though. I have been tying her up when i get to the tree. She started striking her own tracks and running game at about 5 1/2 months old i mean really drivin a track just a natural track minded dog. She has been makin every race from that age on, im talkin 3 and 4 hour races in the mountains at night. Often taking the lead. But once treed she would start to wonder off and look for a track. I was wondering if and when a loose is made she may be taking a back track out. Im not hunting snow so looking for a track is near impossible. She was striking and running cat at a very young age (I seen it) and driving the track but i think she is trying to run heads up to much and overrunning the track therefor making a loose and a couple of those and buh bye kitty. Anyways just wondering what the veterans had to say about track minded dogs and whether she will slow down with age and experience? Needless to say she is a super nice dog handles like a 5 year old and a pleasure to hunt behind. Its just sometimes i dont know exactly whatis going on, on a loose or if she is overrunning the track and creating a loose or maybe she hasnt figured out that the game is up. I think she lacks locating ability. Will that come with age. I know she is young but its hard for me to process it because she doesnt act like it. I dont own a good "CAT DOG" never really hunted behind one either. I get lucky once in a while and catch a couple. I might add she is really really independant and will not wait for another dog she will leave many decent hounds in the dust she will go out and hunt on her own and not think twice of where the other dogs are.

[DC DOGGIN]

I just reread what i wrote and it may sound confusing. when the dogs tree she is often wandering around looking for another track to run. And if she is leading a race and either over runs the track or makes a loose and or cant locate she will shut up and sooner or later pick something up. I think when something like this happens she may be finding a deer to play chase with because that is when it seems i dont end up at a tree. DC

[dwalton]

DC DOGGIN: With what she is doing I don't think she will make it as a cat dog....... But before you cull I will give her a try, name your price. Where did you get her and what game has she been on? Dewey

[South Texan]

I assume your dogs are straight cat dogs since this is posted in the cat dog section? Sounds like lots of things going on here. I can see a great young dog taking a track away from the old dogs every now and then, but not consistently. You talk about a 3 or 4 hour race and she's leading the pack. I might start scratching my head a little. Is your other dogs broke? I mean come back to you and tattle on her when she hits an off track or are they tagging along? When she leaves a tree is the cat up the tree? Wither the cat is in the tree or not, it sounds like she is looking for something else to run. If the cat is in the tree I'd make her come to the tree then knock the cat out and let'em run it again, she's gotta learn where the excitement is.

You also said she started starting her own game at 5 1/2 months old and really running it. Is this game of choice or off game your talking about?

As for wondering if she has taken a back track or over running the track, the garmin astro is excellent for this, being used on the map page where it's showing the dogs tracks. If the track has been over run resulting in a loose and they have to come back down the track to line it out again, you can see that they have over run the track on the Astro. Same if she is back tracking, it'll show her coming right back down her track. The Astro in my opinion is a lot more than just a tracking device. You can learn a lot about your dogs with this device. I've been accused of "not listening to the race anymore all you do is watch the astro". I'm still listening but now I also have the option of watching my dogs. When dogs are swinging and looking out of a loose they're suppose to have their mouth shut till they find the track. Now I'm able to see who swings the widest or looks the deepest, see the dogs that are trying to root'em out where they have lost the cat. I've learned a lot more about my dogs with this device.

Well good luck with your gyp, hope it all works out. Robbie

[Warner5]

I have a 2 year old femail that sounds very simular. Very good at starting a track, outstanding moving one, but does the same type of thing at the tree. She will locate and tree briefly until the excitement wears off then she goes to looking for the track even if that means running the back track out of there. I have been cooning her and leashing up and she's coming around, I will keep cooning her until cat season starts. We will see then. Good luck John.

[BOSS HOG]

dwalton i don't think he'd sell that dog for 5k and a pair of dallas cowboys cheerleaders.

[dwalton]

Boss Hog: If he knows his dog and what it is really doing I think that maybe he might keep him. He could send me a PM and it might be easy to over come its problems or not. I think Robbie had a good reply. Dewey

[DC DOGGIN]

Mr Dewey, South Texan, John, thanks for the replies. Maybe i posted this in the wrong section. No i dont own a straight "CAT DOG" or a "BROKE" check dog. But What i do own is a good young prospect. I may be some dumb but im not plumb dumb or then agian maybe i am. She was started on coon but has been ran on grey fox and cat. I have no intentions on culling her. I can't use A GARMIN with the CA state laws. CAT and FOX seems to be her game of choice. Often enough the game is up when she starts to wander from the tree. She has not been on enough cat or fox to do her any justice. Mostly coon trees with several fox and cat in the mix. If she was in the hands of a real cat hunter im sure shed shine within a short amount of time. I know if i had the opportunity to put her on 15 or 20 cat in a row, that would be a slam dunk. She started running ANY game she would come across at a young age. So i started leading her around and waiting till the other MORE RELIABLE older dogs struck to turn her in. As i didn't want to hinder her natural ability of shocking her off of bad game before she had seen enough good game. Although she can be called off with a simple voice command and come running back to me and be ready to go again when i sent her. I was just wondering whether most track minded dogs like i mentioned will put it all together with age or does she need to see more game or be in the right hands? It seems to me she gets her excitment out of the chase and once the chase is over she is lookin for another one. She can run for hours and not burn an ounce of energy, i have not seen a dog with this much stamina. anyways thaks for the replies much appreciated. And Boss Hogg you are right i wouldnt part with her for 5 k and a pair of cheerleeders, Playmates maybe? lol. Have a good one fellas. DC

[lepcur]

Hey DC, It sounds like you have a nice young prospect there. I've seen in a couple lines over the years often enough to leed me to believe that sometimes it is a genetic defect,in other words I think it's bred into them, leaving the tree to trail off, front wards or backwards, it's not a good thing. I hope that it is a habit rather than genitic. If it's genitic the only thing that will cure it is a lead pill, if it's a habit you can break them of it with the e-collar on a lower setting, every time she does it just pop her after she gets a little ways off. Start off low and just use the amount of juice it takes her to get the message and never let up on the training, and praise her when you get to the tree after you tie her up, she should get the picture after several times of this treatment. I hope it works for ya. Mike

[South Texan]

DC,
To me, just my opinion, just because a dog is track "minded" doesn't make it a good or great dog. Any good or great dog has to be track minded, but I have also seen some trashy dogs that were sure track minded. Take a track and run the heck out of it and do it in style, but... it was trash.

Will she put it all together.... She sure should, given the right opportunity. She sounds like she has a lot of sense if you can call her off a track as easily as you say. Amount of choice game caught with her is one of the main factors. She'll take a step forward for every choice game caught or treed, but she'll take two steps backward for every off track she gets to run. To me, that's how a dog finally figures it out, showing them the game they can and can not run and I mean being consistent with it. The smarter the dog, the faster they'll figure it out.

Age... Age always helps on a young dog, because the older they get, the more game they have seen. The more game they have seen, the better they'll get. A lot of other things come with age too: Experience, patients, ect

Sorry to hear you can't use the Astro in Ca., I didn't know. That's a real BUMMER. It's a real handy tool. I hunted for years without it, but I sure know a little more about my dogs now that I have it. Good luck with your gyp, she sounds like a keeper. Robbie

[Patrick]

Most all of us have run into dogs that behave this way, and this tendency is something that is not always fixable or might not be worth the effort. The purpose of hunting cats is to catch them and a dog not getting to the tree or leaving the tree is not assisting in meeting that goal. Instead that dog is running around the woods making noise and being a distraction.
Of all the faults a dog can have, it seems to me this ranks up there with the worst.
How long I will work a dog through this behavior is dependent on a couple of things.
If it is younger than a year I don't get too worked up about such issues unless they act just plain stupid. After a year they need to start showing me some significant progress.
If I have good solid tree dogs at the time that ignore the distraction then I don't mind as much and I am more willing to work with the problem. But not all good dogs can take pressure from some fool dog backtracking and leaving the tree, and if they are screwing up my old dogs too much then it is time to quit working on it and solve the problem.
If I have peers to this dog and he is starting to pull them into his bad habit, then he has to go.
Once the dog is getting towards 1 1/2 I will likely have younger pups coming along, and you can't have a dog leaving the tree, backtracking, or milling around when trying to start the younger dogs, so he then has to go.
If the dog has seen quite a bit of game, the main characteristic that will cause me to pull the plug is if I tie the dog at the tree and I watch its behavior, it has better settle down and at least act like it knows where the game is, (as in acting tree minded). If that dogs is fighting the leash and acting like it wants to split looking for a track then it is time to give up and move on.
Pat

[DC DOGGIN]

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[DOITALL]

DC, just curious can your dogs see the cats in the tree or treeing on scent? Have you jumped 1 out and rerun it? That certainly can make a difference in a young dogs confidence that it is there and they will stay around just in case it jumps again.
Rick

[Patrick]

Jumpouts are a lot of fun and I enjoy my share of them. But I have seen them set back dogs if a guy isn't careful. This is especially the case if there are young dogs there that are not very tree minded. It doesn't click that the critter came out and all they know is that there is a hot track leaving the tree, and now all they can think of next time is looking harder for hot tracks leaving the tree. By tying them at the tree a guy can increase his chances (gambling) that the young dog sees (or winds/senses/? the game if at night) come out. But many times fox and cat jump wide or hit other trees/brush on the way down, and a young dog not paying attention won't have a clue where they came from. A sharp dog will be concentrating and need to be tied or he will be there at the bottom with a shot at catching the varmint.
I have even had young dogs that are treeing good get "set back" by my getting carried away with the jump outs. I think all is good and then notice them getting loose on the tree and milling.
Pat

[desertrat]

Just a few questions How do you know she is leading any races?? you cant use GPS in CA so just was wondering how you know.. if you aren't running broke dogs and you only hear her open she may be leading trash races.. If you are running broke dogs that get it done on their own, maybe you should just let her in on a few trees and let her have that excitment instead of running with the other dogs.. just my two cents.. I am just speaking off of my pack of dogs, but how is it that a pup out running your lead dogs?