The crime of making Americans aware of their own history

[bigboarstopper]

All i know is that a 1000 iraqi, afgani, somali ect lives are
not worth a single american's life.

[cmogi10]

boy nothing like a bunch of good ol houndsmen to tell you how the koran reads.

[timothy]

boy nothing like a bunch of good ol houndsmen to tell you how the koran reads.

Just because your a "houndsmen" does not mean you do not educate yourself. But I do find the humor in your comment pretty funny.

[Grzyadms4x4]

Great responses guys. This is dialog that we should be having and not just parroting what the t.v. talking heads or our "leaders" tell us.

Timothy,
No vest for me, thanks anyways. I'm a free thinker. They attack the free nations of the world because they (beep) with the muslims too! They are allies with us and help us fight against them.

We can have spies there, but we do not need to try and bring or incite "democracy" to a people that will never accept it or implement it. You cannot spread freedom by force. They are opposites of each other. Bring the fight to them? How about we don't fight unless OUR homeland is attacked.

Oh boy, don't bring up world war 2, because, honestly we helped cause that quagmire with sanctions on the German government and the Treaty of Versialla that never EVER does any good to any country we place sanctions on. It all causes blow back and the death of 10's of thousands of INNOCENT citizens of their countries. Again, Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

The radical Muslims will never be a majority. Just look at all of the Arab countries that are becoming much more moderate. Do you think those millions of people are going to suddenly turn around and say ya know freedom sucks lets go back to the old ways. No, that will not happen, especially with the internet and various forms of media that people have access to today. The citizens access to the truth makes them yurn more and more for a more western or free society.

Also, have not hundreds of thousands of people been slaughtered over Christianity. Since when is Christianity not guilty of EXTREME violence towards non believers. Christians have always historically picked and choosed which passages from the Old Testament to use to justify their actions. Just as modern American Christians use the Old Testament to justify discrimination against homosexuals, Christians have in the past killed "non-believers" and "converted by the sword," using OT scripture as a basis for these actions.

From what I've read, right after Moses gave the ten commandments, prohibiting killing, he follows with dictating that the tribe of Levi pull out their swords and kill the non-believers. Some 40 years or so later the Hebrews are told to invade and slaughter the Cananintes...both cases a Jihad of sort. But over time Christianity has evolved to a better, closer understanding of God. Jesus mostly only focuses on forgiveness, changing our lives so we aren't burdened by our evil past. We can become new again, and not repeat our sins. I believe the vast majority of Muslims do not condone the killings of anyone, either non believers or believers, but the fear mongers like Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Dick Cheney, etc. want you to be very, very afraid because, Muslims are a takin over baby! There will be sharia law in every city. Good god get a grip people.

Nolte, you can never bridge a gap by force, never, unless you kill them all and that's not what America is about. We cannot go around the world, basically invading other countries, because there are people there that say they want to blow us up.

After 9/11 we did the right thing by going after the taliban, but we have 10s of thousands of troops over there right now searching for what maybe 500-1000 extremist. Why is it that Russia finally left, because they were broke, and we will be too before long. And as far as the tragedy goes which happened on September 11th., more people die every YEAR from car accidents, athletic activities, etc. and we do not go after anyone over that. We do not create new government agencies that have NO oversight to control these deaths. More people have died in Sudan and Somolia in a DAY than died on 9/11 and our great police force did nothing! Why are Libyians, Syrians, Iragis, etc more important than others in much greater danger?

What is important to learn is WHY they blew us up on September 11th 2001 and February of 1993. Again, they told us why and we keep doing the same thing because of our foreign interest in the region.

Sgt., the difference is if the alley is in MY country, not someone elses. And sorry Sgt., but when is questioning the status quo, propaganda or the authority in our country a BAD thing? Is that not how our country was formed?
Sgt, isn't The price of freedom eternal vigilance or should I just let everyone else make up my mind for me since our policy makers would NEVER lie to us.

So no, I am not the problem with this country, but maybe close minded, imperialistic, fear mongering main stream media following, sheeple ARE! Is that what you fought for? What many died for? For us to be a bunch of sheeple afraid of some boogeyman? Staring at a magic picture box in our living rooms, afraid to think for one's self because the boogy man might get me. Hanging on every word of how our great leaders are going to make us safer with more debt and more war.

While our country goes down the toilet, corporations turn into monopolies and send our jobs to the same people we were just blowing up a few decades earlier.

Oh, and thank you for your service, it is unfortunate that we need/ed men like you to do the dirty work of greedy politicians and bankers.

[JTG]

The crime is you bringing this up on this website. A more appropriate location would be in SanFrancisco where you can sip a frappucino with like minded people.

Sgt I am with you 100%

[Grzyadms4x4]

Jtg your mindset and many others posted are, if you take a step back, a lot more similar to the San Fran crowd than mine. I'm sorry I don't follow your propaganda I like the truth.

Sorry the truth hurts your feelers. Go fly your war flag and preach your muslim fearing lies to someone else. Because your NeoCon bullsh!t don't fly with me, brother.

[hunt14]

I guess if you are willing to post an article written by William Blum whether you want to or not you are furthering his agenda and supporting his purposes. Why don't you google William Blum and see what he is all about? He is one of the sharpest critics of foreign policy and has dedicated his life to tearing it down. Here's a life goal of Mr. Blum. Blum has described his life's mission as: "If not ending, at least slowing down the American Empire. At least injuring the beast. It's causing so much suffering around the world." Montgomery, David (2006-01-21). "The Author Who Got A Big Boost From bin Laden". Washington Post: pp. C01.

Really? Its too bad so many people are influenced by these kinds of people. I guess their eloquent words and ability to cite partial facts while leaving out or not knowing the reasons behind why alot of these things were done really impress some people including the person who started this thread.

The don't blow us up because we are free, they blow us up because our foreign policy is hypocritical and they don't want to be manipulated or coerced into anything they don't want to.

Wow! Well many of these countries are ruled by dictators who seek to take away liberty which is something that we defend and should defend as stated by Thomas Paine.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine. And you are right we usually do manipulate people and coerce them into stopping their mass murders, torture tactics on innocent people, and raping of women and children and this makes them pissed off because we are making them do things that they don't want to do.
This quote by Thomas Paine encompasses the very reason that the United States has protected others and helped others gain freedom. Their are two sides to the story. One side claims that the United States are bullies and they just want to throw their weight around as you have stated in your post above. The other side believes this is more than just another attempt by the United States to bully somebody But to aid when given the chance in helping others gain freedom, something that is a right of all men as was stated in our constitution. I wonder what William Blum has to say about our Constitution?

Our Country has risen to the top and been a world super power not because of bullying people and manipulating people into doing what we want. Its because of the principles that it was founded on and its desire to protect freedom that has made this country what it has been."I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves-Abraham Lincoln. The very principles that have made us what we are are being lost and that will be the cause of our down fall. Its people like Mr. Blum and those who support him who will be the downfall of our country. The wars that are being fought are not between two countries who don't see eye to eye but are wars between right and wrong. It goes much deeper than bullying or trying to secretly retaliate for past wrongs dealt to individuals or countries. Its a war influenced by people and power that go beyond this world. The U.S. isnt an angel and have done many wrong things like any other country in this world. I am sure there are many things about our foreign policy that can be handled differently however we have been given much more in this country and we must do all we can to preserve what is right and help others do the same or own liberties come under attack. Ronald Reagan said this, "We're at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind in his long climb from the swamp to the stars, and it's been said if we lose that war, and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening."Their are two sides to every story Grzyadms4x4 and to take the side of Mr. Blum who so openly seeks to tear down the U.S. doesn't seem like its the smartest thing to do. Ron Paul doesn't agree with his agenda to tear down the United States does he?

[timothy]

What is a "free thinker" I hear liberals use it a lot. The funny part is they use it the same way you did. Just after they regurgetated something that they got from someone else. In this case you claim to be a free thinker after putting up someone else's research. If you are a free thinker then come to with a real solution to the problem. A realistic solution would be preferable. Long term occupation of the middle east will have to happen. You speak if a small group of intelligence collectors, what about their support? There is a lot more I disagree with but I'm burning up,valuable data from my phone on a lost cause.

[muzzy]

well i agree our foreign policy is messed up thats the reason we havnt won a war since vietnam u cant win a war by pussyfootin around and putting restrictions on how to fight. all is fair in war so crap or get off the pot should be the policy if we must be there and kill the weeds by killin the seeds. sounds really bad but these people have been fighting wars long before the birth of this great country and the only way to stop it is too get rid of them completely if we cant or dont want to do that then we might as well get out now cause tryin to separate the good from the bad in religion is impossible. As grzyadms4x4 said"the truth hurts your feelers"

[JTG]

4 x 4 I know your kind your sick minded and I am trying to help you when I suggest you should seek professional help.

You throw your poison out there looking into an arugment that you feed off of.

Your the guy on the home teams bench cheering for the other team.

Do not buy into his twisted game by debating with him because that's what he wants.

[Grzyadms4x4]

Sorry Timothy. I guess I'm a liberal, just like Glenn Beck or Sean hannity told you I am because I don't support our foreign policy of saving Israel from a boogey man or whatever your magic box told you today. Yes I am a free thinker, damn liberals stole my phrase and co-opted it for themselves. Wow two different groups of people using the same phrase. Damn that's not allowed. Sorry about not typing up my own list, It was much easier to use Mr. Blums as he already had it done for me. I love the internet. Sorry I'm a lost cause, but mark my words if we continue to occupy the middle east, we WILL be broke beyond our imaginations, beyond what we saw in the '30's within 10-15 years max. There's only so much money we can borrow from China to keep funding these wars!

And Hunt14, screw being an empire! When did the founders ever say that was the intent of our Republic. Now tell me exactly which empire HAS NOT FAILED? There is a reason why they fail and we get to see ours fail right before our very eyes. Yippie!

Cuz it's one, two, three what are we fightin for?
Don't ask me I don't give a damn
Our next stop is Pak-Is-Stan

And it's one, two, three open up the pearly gates.
Ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopie were all gonna die

Come on mothers across the land
send your kids to Iran-again
Be the first one on your block
To have your KID COME HOME IN A BOX!!!!!

I actually came up with that one, so don't give credit to Mr. Blum!

Hunt14, and anyone else, we keep just going in circles here. I say we basically provoked it and you say they provoked it. There is no winner in this discussion, just discussion and thought. Which is a good thing yes? If Thomas Paine could get on the internet and read your misuse of a quote from his Dissertation on First Principles of Government, he'd be spinning in his box. Are you serious? You do realize that you are stretching his words to cover your position on this subject and using it in this case is using it completely out of context.

Hunt14, I did not ralize as well that we are supposed to be fighting all of the wrongs in this world. Where is that in our Constitution? If that is what you want, why not go over there and help out which ever country you feel needs a little dose of liberty and you can be a modern day Marquis de Lafayette!

Why don't we work on securing our liberties before we start preaching them to people who are not ready for it or do not want it. Speaking of our liberties, we have lost more and more of them Since 9/11. So how does that fit?

So with this logic, we need to remove our liberty to help preserve it and help other have more of it. What the hell is wrong with this picture? It is what you inferred, no?

From what I understand, Dr. Paul, does want to dismantle it slowly to prevent chaos that would ensue if we immediately, as in one day, closed down our empire.

Again, when one of the most constitutionally minded libertarians receives more donations from our military than ANY OTHER CANDIDATE, on both sides of the isle COMBINED, what does that tell you?

By the way, Reagan was talking about Communism and totalitarianism. Many could argue we are much more communistic and definitely way more of a totalitarianistic country than we were when he gave that speech.

Just so you do know, I do not agree with some of Mr. Blums statements. Just as I do not agree with all of Mr. Madison's, Mr. Adam's, Mr. Franklin, Mr. Mason, etc, but they didn't seem to agree with each other either, but they were drawn together by the want for Liberty which we are losing rapidly in the name of safety all so we can have a vast "empire". What would they say about all this. It's not hard to find out, just pick up a book and see which side of the fence they were on regarding empires and foreign intervention.

[Grzyadms4x4]

JTG, why don't you give me a call on the telephone and we can discuss this much quicker as typing all this is making my fingers tired. Just do it after 6pm pacific time. I do not want to miss the Racheal Maddow show.

By the way, I throw all of this out there because I have two small daughters who WILL NOT have a better life than us because we and several generations before mine allowed our gooberment to continually piss away our money on wars and foreign intervention that people do not want or need. I am not here for an argument, but a discussion is good. When is debate bad? I thought it was good and healthy. Sorry, I guess I was wrong; I'll shut up and be a good little commie now.

PM me for my number if you want to have a discussion.

[timothy]

Wait I figured it out. Crazyadms4x4 is a fish cop from California trying to stir the pot. He does not even believe his own non-sense.

[2ndhound]

I had planned to stay out of this bait shop, but............ Since the self proclaimed Liberal is tooting his horn about his rhyme writing abilities and insulted that someone may think him lazy for quoting his hero, and bragging on his talent as a writer for all to see, I would advise him to realize that all the old farts aren't dead yet,
Why don't you credit Arlo Guthrie with your so called original lyrics to his early seventies anti Vietnam movie and song?
Plagiarism the new knowledge
Ken

[timothy]

I had planned to stay out of this bait shop, but............ Since the self proclaimed Liberal is tooting his horn about his rhyme writing abilities and insulted that someone may think him lazy for quoting his hero, and bragging on his talent as a writer for all to see, I would advise him to realize that all the old farts aren't dead yet,
Why don't you credit Arlo Guthrie with your so called original lyrics to his early seventies anti Vietnam movie and song?
Plagiarism the new knowledge
Ken

nice, apparently crazyadams4x4's tailgate never drops!