Type of hounds in Northern states

[sdred]

Ok all these southern boys talk about the running breed dogs being better dogs down south, all I want to know is, not out west of the rockies or south of Kansas but upper Midwest has anyone tried the running type hounds and with any luck remember that most of the upper states harvest season runs threw the dead of winter and your usually hunting in the snow. Even if you are using running walkers are you putting down more than 2 or not? Just wandering in case I need to change my way of thinking.

[dwalton]

Not many people go to the upper midwest to hunt cats it is not know for a lot of cats to hunt. It is a different type of hunting cold and snow. I have never hunted there hope to some day. What I do know is that in every area there is the local way to hunt or what can or can't be done so no tries something different. That is changing some with people moving around a lot more and places like this with a good place for knowledge or bull to try new things. I have hunted in Washington,Oregon, California,Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Arkansas. Different breeds hunt different and as I have said a good dog is a good any where. The part running dogs or all running dogs have a way of moving a track they do it anywhere it is the dog not the area they are hunted in. There is a thousand reasons out there why people don't like them only one why they do they catch game quick and easy. In the right hands with a cat hunter that can get the best out of them they are the most consistent dog for catching bobcats. I have seen great cat dogs in all breeds but the guys that catch hundreds of cats a year all run some running dogs in there dogs. If you like another breed hunt it, like I said there are many reason why some people don't like running dogs but look and see how many bobcats they catch without them. Just my opinion, with 46 years of cat hunting and thousand of cats it is all that I have. There were some boys on here that know a lot more than I do But they got tired of the KNOWLEDGE that others didn't have. WE will miss them. Dewey

[twist]

Very well said Dewey. But you do need to try a touch of this Nance stuff crossed with your dogs Andy

[newby]

This is a good question...I've been wondering if anyone uses running type dogs here in MT for lion and cats? If so, what difference is it making in how many you catch versus other hunters using a more tree hound type dog? If I had unlimited resources, I'd compare the two side-by-side. The proof is in the eating of the pudding.

[twist]

The running type dog is not needed in treeing lions in Montana all you need is a good consistant trailer with some treeing ability. As for Bobcats a person can catch their share with a certain type of tree hound but it sure doesnt hurt to have a pinch of running dog crossed into some hounds as long as it doesnt take away any nose power or tree ability. In Montana a person needs a hound that can cold trail a bobcat in COLD DRY snow and be able to put the pressure on once jumped and be able to locate and tree as long as you have that type of a mix with the running dog crossed into the tree hound it sure does work here as the extra track speed added from the running dog is great to have. Andy

[dwalton]

I think what people don't realize is the part running dogs tree and I think are better locators than most treeing walkers. It is how they work a track that makes them good. As in all breeds you get a wide selection of traits in that breed. What would it be like to have a dog that ran a track no matter how cold it was did not bark off track only open when it had the track and moving it. Check a tree out before it treed and set back from a tree and barked 20 to 50 barks a minute, did not jump at the tree or bark out in an hour or two. Was never off a track by 5 to 10 feet, did not over run one or bark because someone else was. Open steady but only when it had it and moving, did not bark at the same bush more than twice, ran with its head up taking the scent out of the wind or off the bushes but not having to stop and smell. Ran a track fast no matter if it was many hours old. That caught many of there cats on the ground because the cat could not out run them. Most of you have never hunted with a pack of straight bobcat dogs trained by a hunter that catches 100 plus cat a year but because you catch a few lions and fewer bobcats you know what it takes. The only way to know is to keep a open mind and hunt around the country with people that do catch a lot of cats. With those guys it never get to wet, to hot, to cold or to dry to hunt. The conditions may make it hard to tree bobcats but you are not going to tree them if you do not hunt and when the conditions get better the dogs look great. I believe the only way to make to cat dogs is to hunt them all year in all kinds of conditions. Dewey

[twist]

Dewey great post again but not all running dogs or treeing hounds are like what you are saying they are few and far between it takes the right cross to get what you are saying and as for a dog to run a track with his head up all the time cant be done in Montanas cold weather snow conditions. Our conditions dont alow it I invite any one that says they can to come hunt with me and show me it can be done and I will be the first to shake thier hand. I have been doing this for close to fourty years and by no meens consider myself a great bobcat hunter in other parts of the country but I sure no what kind of hound it take to tree bobcats in this cold dry snow area. Andy

[dwalton]

Andy: I have never ran cats in Montana but I have in Utah, Oregon and California In desert type conditions in 10 t0 25 below . It is very hard conditions being as dry as it gets in sub zero weather. A dog that runs with his head up may cut a little wider and over run more in those condition than I like them to but they still do it and catch cats as they will in bare ground conditions in the same country. The hardest time that they have is in bare hard rock frozen ground with wind blowing. That is how they work a track heads up at a run they will not be as effective as in good conditions. One does not know what they don't know until they have seen it. The only way a dog can catch a bob in those dry cold or frozen hard ground is to run it with its head up if a dog puts his nose to the ground and trails in adverse conditions it will never be able to close the gap on a cat and push it hard enough to tree it. Yes you have to chose running dogs that tree to breed to for tree dogs. I have a 5\8 running dog that is one of the best locating tree dogs that I have and she throws tree dogs. I have hunted 1\4 and 1\2 Nance dogs before, I have 1\4 Nance yearling that goes to Samson now. As with all dogs they vary. The Nance that I have hunted seem to be to independent so they get thrown out by not packing up and smell at the same spot to long. I have not hunted any of the ones that you raise to see how they do but would like to sometime. The ones that I have seen of Nance breeding have the speed but don't seem to have the smarts or pack mentality to stay up in a race. Bottom line is that I have not hunted Montana because of its laws on bobcat hunting so I don't know what the running dogs that I have would do there but have hunted similar conditions else where. Running dogs are breed not to tree as you know but in some places and some full blood running dogs do tree. I have seen full blood Julys locate good they just don't bark much. As always you breed to the dogs that have the traits that work for you. We all have different idea's as to what we want in a dog. I try to hunt one or two pups from good dogs that are not mine each year always looking for something better. It gives me a good feeling for what works for or not. It is just that it is.... not what is right or wrong it is just what is. Dewey

[newby]

Well, my ploy worked...I just heard from the two guys that I wanted to hear from on the subject as I think there's about 80 or 90 years worth experience here between you two . I'm with you Dewey, I think people have always hunted in certain areas a certain way, so "that's how it has to be done", and I am of the mindset that you'll never know how something works til you try it, that being said, I've only been in Montana for 2 years and don't even have enough experience to be called a "cat-hunter". I sure would like to see how a good pack of running dogs would work out here though cause I think the envelope can always get pushed a little further and the beauty of innovation is that it can change the way things are done until someone else who has the brass to change things up again comes along and opens up the horizon a little further. As far as the Topper Again dogs working for cats in Oregon, isn't there anyone who's using them out there?

The ones that I have seen of Nance breeding have the speed but don't seem to have the smarts or pack mentality to stay up in a race.

Dewey, what do you mean by this? I guess what I mean is, how does a dog with a "pack mentality" differ from a dog that always hunting for the track itself and not content to just wait for someone else to find the lose? Don't know if that makes sense, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try. Thanks

[twist]

Newby, I have seen just what Dewey is saying in some of the Nance strain as well as all other strains a good (set) of bobcat dogs out here meening two or three need to be able to run thier own track but also need to play the honor system and once a hound opens with the track the others need to honor or if not and independent one will get blown from the race. In my eyes a real independent dog is too track driven and doesnt honor in most cases. I myself will not hunt that style of dogs and are no use to me. Andy

[tman308]

I have a nance male that will hunt for his own track but has figured out who in the pack to honor. If a certain one of my hounds bark he won't go to them but if others bark he will. Not sure why but he must know something I don't.

[dwalton]

Tman: You just stated a very important fact about cat dogs.[ He has figure which dogs to honor.] I can which a pack of dogs and see which ones you should cull for bobcat hunting. If your dogs are not honoring another dog that means one of two things he is trashy and needs broke or more important he is barking off track[ when he does not have a track] get rid of him, he is dead weight taking away from catching game and not adding to it. That is one of the major problems that slow your track moving ability down. People have criticized my dogs for not barking enough when in fact they are open mouth dogs that bark when they have a clean track and moving it. We all like to hear the dogs work a track but few can tell if the noise we hear is productive or just noise. That was learned by thousand of hours of walking behind hounds watching them. Even today that is how I start the young dogs. Leave the rig or three wheeler parked and get out there to see what is happening. There is a lot to be learned that way instead of making up a story as to what we think that is happening. Dewey

[twist]

tman hope your trip was a good one and thanks for offering to get the female for me but she caught a faster ride here. If you dont mind me asking what is your Nance dog out of. Andy

[mondomuttruner]

Amen Dewey!
With gps out, it is very easy to tell which dogs are doing what and if their barking on track or not. The owner just has to be smart enough to advantage of it.

[sdred]

Very good information men, but my question still lies unanswered is their anyone who has tried it if not Dewey how would you go about it if you lived where I live and wanted to give something new a try? We catch bobcats quite a bit but not as consistantly as I think we can. We seem to wait for new snow but times have open cold dry conditions or worse cold dry old snow. We run redbone plot and cross dogs but never with running blood. Seem to loose tracks when multiple cats cross each others tracks. Or circle over and over same tracks. Can always turn in a fast tree dog after race is on.