Bear Aversion Dogs

[albertaguy]

Thanks for that reply Dmunk. Well, it is a good living, sometimes I figure I'm the luckiest guy on earth, somedays, i figure, not so much. I have been blessed with lots of fun.

I am just repeating what I heard about the Karelians, but I have no experience on them. I was told they were intense, hard to train, one dimensional dogs who like to bark at bears. But I sure could be wrong on that count, I am just saying what others have told me and it could be they were just bad trainers. Plus, I was told, again second hand info, that the Karelian can be too tough on strangers, I need a dog good to be around. A dog that can be trusted around kids. karelians could be great dogs, however, I notice there isn't many using them. Anyone out there with the Karelians? Any reports on them? I haven't seen any mention of them on here.
I'm open to hearing about any breed, especially from those that have used them and give an unbiased report on their experiences.
Thanks for the tips on the heelers by the way.

[pegleg]

Yep I'm going to hold on the heelers for all you want to do except maybe blood trail. They have good prey drive and will handle as well as you ask them to. I've had heelers most of my life as working dogs companion dogs etc. So anything new I want to try in dog training I try out on them first. I take mine everywhere. They will locate a lion bear coon etc. Never find a dog easier to trash break either. I've had two that were half hound that beat many dogs I've seen hunt. The intelligence,willingness to please, physical durability and mental toughness make them hard to beat. The things that could be improved is their willingness and ability to take a less then hot track naturally and size a bit bigger would be a plus. Voice is week and alone won't intimidate bears alone so the bite is needed.
If you are planning on keeping this job for a long time I would recommend looking into a hound X heeler cross strain of your own. Find a larger heeler with good Traits listed or needed and a hound that is smart and handles well with a loud mouth and intelligent. I know there's enough guys using this cross spread around that if you advertised you could get the litter placed before hand and probably establish a breeders trade group.
The spitz dogs I've hunted with have all been hard headed and difficult to control while hunting in pairs or more and very single use dogs. Aggression is usually a issue also. I don't know if its just the american breeding or if this is typical. I'm by no means a expert on them as they are limited in use in any place I've hunted or I missed them. I've only owned one a elkhound it treed well and handled the cold in colorado no problems ever.
The Terriers may work if you can find a intelligent one. I know that's supposed to be a positive for the breed but I'm not sold on it being as true as it might have been in the past. They hunt from the right line but your sure asking for a Multi purpose dog and the terriers are dominant dogs that Imo would take as much or more work and selection to get what you want as a heeler X. Then there's the coat issue with burs, seeds,ice, Etc.
Well there's the speal. Lol and no I don't have any to sell. It just really seems your in need of a intelligent working dog that handles AND has grit.
The brits use the border collie and collie to cross on their speed dogs to get handle+brains and a few other countries you'll find similar crosses. They work well for their purposes and the crosses are mostly predictable. The heeler is close to the collies just tougher and has more bite when needed. The heelerXhounds I've seen have been pretty uniform as well with the brains usually making up for any weakness in natural trailing ability. You might ask for more opinions on this cross and find some different opinions closer to your country. I'd put one up against any of the cur breeds in most situations. And pure hounds in close hunting medium to easy tracks.
Go watch what ever breed or dogs your interested in buying breeding etc work at as many things as its capable of.

[Deff]

I had a Heeler / Black and Tan cross that hated bears. She was an excellent bobcat hound, worked close, was very easy to handle and good with strangers . She was a silent trailer, but when she saw a bear, her bugle would flat out blow a hole through the ozone layer! I won't say that she was cold hardy but she did seam to tolerate it better than the pot-lickers I have now.

[hamilton10]

A couple of good big-game bred Mountain Curs would be perfect for what you are doing. Good nose, smart, gritty and easily trained to do anything. Most of them also have a downy undercoat and get along just fine in real cold weather also. Mine find some bear in dens while I am out hunting and will stay bayed until I get there. Then I pet them up and call them away without even putting a leash on them.

[albertaguy]

Thanks for all the great replies, you've given me some great ideas on some breeds. And confirmed what I was told about some other ones.
I had looked at the Wind River Bear Institute and they have a page on there about dogs. Apparently a lot of people find them unsuitable for anything else than running a bear off. They look to be having trouble with suitable owners. It states that thousands of hours are needed to get them trained properly to recall and few other things making them a bad choice for my needs.

Anyways, thanks for all the help, it is appreciated. When I make a decision, I'd about drive anywhere to get the dogs I need, when I got the Catahoulas, I drove to Louisiana and then to Arkansas. Had a great trip, saw some new country and met some great people. It's never too far to go and get a good dog.

[sheimer]

Take this with a grain of salt.......Pegleg might have mentioned the solution to your problem. I have a little bit of time spent around Border Collie's and they seem to fit what your looking for. Only difference between them and the Heeler's is the temperament around people. I know that some heelers are good around people, but I've been around several that aren't what you'd call safe around people. The flip side is some collies are too timid. Like all breeds, it depends on the strain you get. I've got a collie now that would fit you like a glove and what he doesn't know, you could train him in a matter of minutes. My brother has one that would rather piss where it stands than confront a bear. Different strain, different dog, same breed. Mine is not what a hound is for nose, but he makes up a lot of that with brains. He sight tracks in the snow better than some hounds can scent trail. Good luck with your search and I'll take two when you find them!

Scott

[albertaguy]

Thanks for that reply. That's the problem with getting a dog, just cuz it is a certain breed, is it going to work out for what a guy wants. We had a couple of Border Collies on the farm, and they didn't work for anything, the neighbour had one and it was an ace at about anything.
Same with any breed, it is more the individual than the breed, some are good working stock or hunting stock, still no guarantee. Probably best to find a finished dog, but why would anyone part with one that is working good?

it's a tough thing this, trying to find a good dog, hard enough picking the breed or cross, also have to find the right individual.

Make a man crazy!

[sheimer]

Here's a thought....

http://www.garyericssoncowdogs.com/

Scroll to the bottom and read about the "hangingtree" dogs. Call the guy up and visit with him. Mabey he could shed some light on the subject.

Scott

[DOITALL]

My wife has 2 Karelians.They are good guard dogs,not mean but very attentive.not mean with people at all.The female is very smart very trainable.In 10 minutes my wife trained her to ring a bell that hangs on the door knob so she can go out.(I'm sure someone will make fun of that.) I can tell her to find my wife and she will any where on this farm.They have very good noses,but trail silent.We do use a e-collar so she will stay close,the male always stays close.They love it out side no matter how cold or amount of snow.
Not that i'm saying that this is the breed you need,but someone saying they are dumb?I'm sure there are dumb hounds in all breeds.

[Major]

As I have said before, I believe that a good airedale will fit your bill. They have plenty of grit (watch that you get from working lines not just any show variety), have medium-hot nose, and extremely intelligent. Now, the only downfall to them is some of them are silent dogs. They are bite first bark second. But there have been other airedales that bark every breath, again, it all depends on the line you get them from. If you join the traditionalairedale.proboards.com forum and state your concern, they will work with you to get the dog you desire. My second choice would definately be the blue heeler. They are good dogs. I hope I don't sound one minded and I dont want to come off that way. But there are a network of breeders that are working to bring back the airedale to the way they use to be. Nowadays the only thing they are missing is a 100% reliable treeing instinct.

Hope this helps,

Major

[Mr.X]

Here is a good video on the use of KBDs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl1bOlfU9XI

Also a KBD in action vs a grizzly bear, solo (bear is chained though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchjWjlbedM&feature=related

Talk about fearlessness.

Why not consider getting a KBD for chase and prevention purposes and then get a hound for your tracking? It wouldn't be far-fetched to say that you could possibly get the two to work hand in hand?

[albertaguy]

I understand that the KBD is a fearless dog. But I am put off by what I read and what I hear from other fellows that have tried them. They are pretty independant and require a lot of training. And a lot of them don't work as advertised. The Wind River Bear Institute has this to say on their web-page. http://www.beardogs.org/kbds/owning.html
When they say that it takes thousands of hours, yes, thousands of hours to train them to Come, well, it makes me not want to get one. They also flat out say it is only a few pups out of a litter that will actually stand up to a bear. Sounds like I need to keep looking.
A fellow I know has used them for similar work and is now looking for a different breed, they are just too independant for his liking he says.
I have never used one, they may well be the best dogs for the purpose, but I think some of the other breeds may well be better.

[hamilton10]

I sent you a pm. Call me if you want.

[realdog]

I have some cowdogs 3/4 heeler, 1/4 border collie. I use them as drive dogs, for moving cattle from pasture to pasture. The pastures are 12 to 17 sections. One section equals 640 acres. These dogs are extremely tuff, and obedient. We move cattle over 90 sections in one annual year. Now, I'm going to tell you my experiences with bears, and these dogs. I rode up on five different bears this summer. When the dogs see a bear, they look at me asking what to do. I sick them on them. Then they run at the bear, biting the ever living hell out of him. When the bear turns at the first dog that bit him, another one bites the hell out of him in the rump they are like gangsters always taking a cheap shot and biting the everliving hell out of the bear. If the bear doesn't go up a tree right away and runs for it. The dogs chase him for about a quarter mile, out of my sight, biting the hell out of him the whole way. Then they come back without me even calling them. When the bears go up a tree they stare at it and bark till i ride off and say lets go then they quit and follow my horse. I usually take two or three cowdogs, when I go.
I don't expect these cowdogs to trail like my hounds, on lion, but I usually take one because when a lion is in a bolder patch, or a bluff, they will look for the lion by sight and smell. Which helps jump the lion out of where its laid up. They're similar to a Cur,where they are great for what they are intended for, but don't expect them to pound out a lion track or trail an overnight bear track, but I think they would be great for what your job is. They like to be with there owners. They stay so close to me, that when I go out and get in the truck, they want to go to work, so they get in the truck, without you telling them to. That's how close bonded they get. i hope this helps you with what you are looking for these dogs listen better then the kids do these days lol. and they listen that good natural its bred into them. and they bite the bears so hard that the bears let out a half swall roar and the dogs spit fur our of there mouths its not just a little nip like they do when they are driving cattle. The dogs i have look like a purebred heeler but are bigger and listen better and like people even stangers to the point someone who they dont know could pet them without me being there. but you could sick them on someone if needed that is just because of there loyalty. I dont have any pups and dont usually raise any unless i need some for myself . if i had some right now i would give you two pups and i know you would be happy when they were grown. My friends that have seen them work think i am a great dog handler but i tell them that the cowdogs are just naturally that way and that is the truth i just work them like i would a hired hand and they listen.

[albertaguy]

Well, thanks for that information and taking the time to write such a good long message. I had never considered that cross between a heeler and a collie. Some people had said a heeler can be a nippy little dog especially with kids, but it seems the cross you use takes that out of them.
I am going to look at that breeding, seems like it would be a real good type of dog to get. It looks to have everything I am looking for in my line of work. Small agile dogs with a strong hunt instinct, who are recallable would work the best for me. These would sure fit the bill.

Thanks again for the info.

Bob