Doesn't anyone breed for locating and treeing these days?

[jcathunter]

This year has been rough starting over with pups and its been even rougher because I have not been able to find a locate/tree dog. Everyone I've talked to is either having the same problems or has one or two dogs that will locate that they can't part with. Every add I see says that the dog is great but can't locate on its own and it seems to be more of a problem the further west the dog is from. As much as I hate to do it, I'm going to start hunting the pups on coon until I find what I need and then break them after they can locate a coon in a 200ft fir.

[twist]

If a dog cant locate and tree it will not stay here I like everyone of my dogs to be able to catch thier own game just my opinion. To me this is a very important trait that is needed in any breeding program. Andy

[jcathunter]

I would not keep a dog that won't tree either. The dogs I'm talking about will tree, and some of them tree very good with other dogs but I haven't seen a natural locate dog in awhile. Sure, they will locate and tree on lion or bear and even low bobcats but a bobcat high in a hemlock is safe. Eventually they all seem to catch on and end up being very accurate tree dogs (I can't stand walking to an empty tree) but it seems like it is more of a learned behavior as opposed to a natural gift.

[Dads dogboy]

JC,

Your statement:

"Eventually they all seem to catch on and end up being very accurate tree dogs (I can't stand walking to an empty tree) but it seems like it is more of a learned behavior as opposed to a natural gift."

Has lots of merit. It seems that even the very Gifted “Natural” Treedogs take a while to gain enough self confidence to start Locating regularly and accurately.

Now our Running Hounds are not Bred to Tree, yet Glen Rybard in Arkansas is Hunting 18 littermates to our Hounds and now has 4 Top locating Treedogs, and when something locates then he has 18 Treedog. It has taken the 4 Locaters almost 4 years to now have the self confidence to believe their Noses when it tells them to look up instead of around and out farther when a Track ends.

We are seeing this with Dad’s Hounds. VACathunter sent us a 6 year old Running Walker Gyp who was a good Treedog in VA on Grey Fox and Bobcat, both up a Tree and in a Hole. This gal has treed 6 for us since Christmas and now has several of the others Treing Hard with her. Friday night she Treed two different Cats. The last was 70+ feet up a Palm Tree.

Dad says that it has been his experience that a Treedog must be in its 4th year or so before it gets really GOOD at Locating!

I would sure like to hear Mr. Dewey’s thoughts on this!

[kickemall]

To answer your question, no I don't think most guys are breeding with enough emphasis on locating and treeing at a young age. I'm begining to think that speed is the only thing being bred for, and not only in cat dogs. Most all the running dog crosses that are so popular (with myself included) are going to have a little age before they are dependable locaters and tree dogs.

[al baldwin]

Don,t know about other areas, locators in this area with 100 ft. + trees can sure be hard to come by.

[jcathunter]

I hear you Al. I'm just north of you a ways and a good locate dog seems to be even more rare than a top rig dog. I truly appreciate the late starting dogs and their accuracy but, when a guy loses that 4+yr old dog that does the locating, it makes it impossible to train a pup. I've got two that will tree nicely if someone else locates but, on their own race, they will circle and circle and sometimes the cat comes down and the race is on again teaching them that there is no tree. I would coon hunt them but my main dog (although under 2) won't mess with them at all.

[twist]

To clear up my earlier post I would like to ad when I said I wont keep a dog that wont locate and tree that is after a couple years of hunting them. Yes a young dog needs to show this trait at an early age but like all other traits they have to be fine tuned and that is done by exposure and age some catch on quicker than others at being truely confident locate and tree dogs but with out exposure and age it just doesnt happen having a young dog with out these two things just be a consistant locate and tree dog. Andy

[coastrangecathunting]

a think a good locate dog knows when the track ends. if u tree a cat lets say at 2 pm the enversion layer is letting the air lift . so the dogs cant smell the cat . a good locate dog knows the track has ended and will tree . that is why when i go to a tree i dont always find the cat in the tree the dogs are treeing on. if the air is dropping then the dog can smell the cat and will be more accurate . when i go to a tree and cant find the cat i see where the wind is coming from and that is where u will find your cat most of the time. if there is a hard jump and then the race comes to a stop , i head in even if a dog hasnt located . if the race is at a slow pace and then a dog starts to tree most likely they are false treeing. i have trained from scratch a couple young dogs with no help of an older dog . when u think a young dog has treed a cat you better get in there and find it for them . after awile they should start getting better at locating . i have spent alot of time sitting in the dark praying for a bark after your half way there and not sure of how far they are and if they are a little left or right. that was before the garmin . now its simple.

jc

[jcathunter]

I wouldn't say simple. lol I've been running in to them and finding the cat when I make it but, as you know, these hills can be tough to get through quickly even though I'm leggy and lanky. I can sure appreciate dogs from my past right now because they just naturally located the cat. I could read the dog and conditions (like JC mentioned) and tell exactly where the cat was. I even had a dog that I could tell how high the cat was as soon as I saw her at the tree. Right now, I'd settle for a dog that could locate a coon just to get my dogs on as many trees as possible.

[al baldwin]

Jcat hunter some hunters do hunt those young dogs on coon & greyfox to get them locating & treeing.

[jcathunter]

I know that there are a million ways to work a pup and get them locating and treeing and to even teach them what does not come natural to them but I guess my complaint is that breeders seem to be overlooking the tree. I just can't seem to remember a time when good tree dogs were so scarce.

[dwalton]

Jcathunter: Locating tree dogs on cat has always been a problem for me. When I ran all game the dogs treed on lion and bear seemed to learn to tree bobs better. I like and only run bobs now, I think the dogs are far better cat dogs but slower to come to the tree. A lot of the hard core coon dogs that look great at a tree can not locate a cat in this country. I never encourage a young dog to tree. I want the natural locating tree dogs to show up to breed to. The problem for me is the dogs that take and move a cat track the way I think it should be done are part running dogs with less treeing instinct. That said one of my best locating dogs is 5\8 running dog. Most of her offspring are tree dogs. One dog bad at locating can throw your hole tree job off. I think every cat dog breeder breeds for tree dogs, does it work for them to locate and tree, not always. I want a cat dog to take a cold track[ hours old] and run it almost as fast as they do a jump. That is what I breed for the most but always with treeing in mind. I run a Leopard or two with my dogs for the treeing. They are the best at that and are far colder nose than what I thought they would be. A track smart dog makes the best locating tree dog. They know when that track ended and never are far off the track. Them they start looking for a tree. The lead dog should be the one that locates, he is the one on that cats butt when it goes up. If he is running to wide he over shoots and misses the tree. It them takes a really good locate dog to come from behind and locate. I crossed a Leopard with my part running dog that is a good tree dog. I am looking forward to see what they will do. Just my thoughts from many miles and years. Dewey

[jcathunter]

I've got a young dog that, in my opinion, works a cat as good as any. The problem is that he won't locate. In the past, he's milled around until it came out then chased it again so its taught him to mill until he finds a hot track again. I've had him actually start to locate and tree a little on a couple cats but, the other day, he treed two and flat out left the tree on one. The second one, I ran down to him but he had turned around and went back on the track about 80 yards and started trying to pick it up again. This caused the cat to jump out and I got to see that the cat ran straight downhill after coming out. This reinforced, once again, that there is a track if you screw off long enough. Ive been trying like heck to find a locate dog to put with him but everyone seems to have the same problem.
Dewey, what age do you expect them to start gettign good on the tree and can the behaviour I'm describing screw up the dogs you are running?

[al baldwin]

Forsure the part running dogs that locate & tree are hard to beat as cat dogs AL