Any thoughts on back tracking.

[Warner5]

I was just curious what some of your thoughts are on back tracking. When I want to tree a cat or put a quick jump on a cat I quickly determine which way is the right way and help my dogs out if they need it. Most of the time this is a hot track. But back tracking also happens on a cold track. Finding the right way on a cold track is more difficult for me most of the time. Now the way I look at it, it's my job to help the dogs out. The better I am at cat hunting, the better my dogs will be. But, sometime's on a back track I find myself content to just listen and see how it play's out without my help, even if I know my dogs are going the wrong way. I guess it's curiosity on my part. I have learned a fair bit letting them go the wrong way. A few observations are. Its much easier calling dogs off a back track than one going the right way. Watching what dogs turn around on their own give's me a good idea what dogs I can trust to be my start dogs. Which dogs are leaders and which one's are content to follow. Young dogs will show focus, drive and determination by sticking with an old track, even if it is the wrong way. Other young dogs will get bored with a faint slow moving track, and decide to take something a little more exciting like a hot trash race. I know some of these things can happen when the track is moving the right way but you get the idea. What I am curious about is. Should back tracking be stopped immediately after I realize it's going the wrong way? Can back tracking get worse if left un-corrected? Some dogs are worse than others, will on track correcting make them better or just confused? Should dogs that never learn to turn a track around and always rely on the other dogs for direction be culled? Sorry so lenghty just some things to think about, I will enjoy reading your responses. Thank you. John.

[Unreal_tk]

I haven't had a back track in awhile with snow but if I think my mutts hit it backwards I try to turn them asap, I do not have a turn around dog yet but it may come. If left unchecked I've had them go a couple miles the wrong way and false tree once its so faint or trash on a coyote. I wouldn't let a dog get away with it unless you think it backtracked itself and made for a nasty loose. But maybe im making a rookie mistake in doing so. One thing I have had happen that benefited me is finding toilets and feeding areas on the long walk to the mutts.

[Dale T]

The more you tolerate a bad trait the worse it will get.

[Jeff Eberle]

What do you do when they false tree , run trash, claim game, barking off track, ect,ect? Treat back tracking the same way. If you are learning then its your job to be teaching. I would put a stop to it now.

[mondomuttruner]

In snow, if I let them go the right way on a track, I just let it play out. I've watch them on a backtrack in a 40 acre tagalder swamp but eventually that backtrack will lead to a track going the right way, just gotta let the dogs determine which track to take. When a cat is hunting in these swamps there will be a track every 10 ft going in different directions, just gotta let the dogs work though them. This is cold tracking only..

On a side note, on very few occasions, I'll send a dog on a backtrack going into some tags where I know coyotes like to bed. A coyote will go out hunting and come bed in the same spot, this is times when the area is so tracked up your not sure where it is. Though I haven't seen a cat do this!!

I think there are drawbacks to going in and helping the dogs, too often and the dogs get used to having the track found for them.JMO

[South Texan]

John, I'm not going to say what's right or wrong, probably don't know anyways. But... your wanting other people's opinion and what they do, so here's my thoughts.

ANYTIME I KNOW my dogs are going backwards I turn them around and get'em on the right end as soon as possible. Now, not to say my dogs want take a trail backwards, I think all cat dogs will to some extent. But when I KNOW their backwards I just can't stand it. I don't want my dogs doing anything wrong, not to say they don't, but when I know they are wrong, they get corrected for it. As dog trainers, we have to strive for perfection in our dogs, not that we'll ever have a perfect dog but we have to try and bring out the best in what we got. As for backtracking, I also believe if you don't have a dog in your pack that will turn around on a track, after much repetition of you helping them turn around on a backtrack, they finally go to figuring it out on their own. Then when the day comes that they hit the track and go left, then in just a little while Ol'Spot comes back and takes it to the right singing "I got it, it's this way", there's just a good feeling that comes over me thinking "well maybe I have done something right, they're finally figuring it out on their own, without my help".

We're not always going to be with our dogs on the track, in all situations, but when we are we have to help them all we can. I believe it helps them to think and use their head. After numerous times of turning them around on a backtrack, Ol'Spot finally figured it out on his own, he was using his head. Then when they get in there maybe a mile from us and make a lose on a cat, and we are not there to help them, just maybe they'll figure that one out too, without our help.

As far as the things you mentioned learning from your dogs taking a backtrack, I think you can learn the same thing on an old cold track, with the dogs taking the right end of it. You ask "Can backtracking get worse if uncorrected"? To me, even a good pack of dogs might go backwards a little while on a hard track. They have to smell and study on the track a little while to determine which end they think is right. But if never corrected, I think they get content with just trailing. They're not taught to think if the track is forward or backward, all their thinking is "as long as I can smell this track I'll keep it going" and that's what they do. Just gets to become a bad habit if uncorrected.

You ask "Will on track correcting make them better are just confused?" My answer would be better, without a doubt. When I call my dogs, they better come. If they're on a track or not on a track, don't make any difference, when I call you come. If I have a dog that is on a backtrack and he won't come when called he gets shocked with just enough intensity level on the shocking collar to get him to come to me. But after you have turned your dogs around on enough backtracks and they have come to ya and taken the other end of the track and caught the cat, the dogs learn your trying to help them. Now when I call my dogs to turn'em around on a track, they come a running back all excited looking the other direction for the cat. They think I'm always right, I've gained their trust in me.

You also ask "Should dogs be culled for always relying on other dogs to turn the track around". I don't think so. In a cat dog it's hard to get it all in one dog. You will see very few cat dogs that can get it done all by theirself. That's why we have a pack of dogs, dogs with different talents within the pack to get the job done. And one of these talents is a dog that can figure out the back-end from front-end of a track. I have seen some good dogs within the pack, with their own talent, but turning a track around wasn't their talent.

I think I have responded to most of your questions, like I said at first, these are just my thoughts and experiences. Maybe it will shed a little light on some of your questions, I hope so. I need to get off of here. Good luck with your trails. Robbie

[al baldwin]

John bareground bobcat hunting forsure is tough to know if dogs are backtracking. I do believe the more dogs the better chance for backtrack. Also believe dogs strikeing from box more prone to backtrack than dogs on the ground. Seems most of the 3 dog pack I,ve owned have learned to turn the track on thier own. Believe backtracking can be an inhertred trait. Yes I would turn the dogs asap when one is sure they are backwards. But my dogs was working a snow track, every where I found the cat track it appeared they were backwards. I had pulled two dogs off the track & in the box, trying to get the last old female to quit. Bang, she jumped the cat, lucky, within 50 yds, dumped the box had a short tear down and treed the cat. Thankful for short race, rough ground, near dark & always hated hunting cat at night. Things like this make me wonder how dogs ever sort out some of those cat tracks & how hunters can say they only want a dog going forward on a cat track. But, I respect everyone,s opinion, & find this sharing experiences to be educational. Thanks to all for reading & sharing. Al

[Liz ODell]

I have had back tracks turn into jumped tracks and a caught cat but if I know they're going backwards I just can't stand it...I actually had it happen yesterday for the first time in a LONG time (caught one on Friday then filled the rest of my weekend with pure dog shenanigans - glorious). Dogs hit a track went downhill through the melting snow -opening pretty good, I see it's backwards and head to them about the time they get to the top of a dry juniper hill and seem to start turning their little brains on. Get them going back the right way and it goes up another dry juniper hill...well that's the end of that track, mess around for a while to see if it's close enough to jump. No, go...very frustrating but sometimes that wet melty snow makes those old tracks seem good - in the snow at least! Wet melty snow can also make a track smell awesome - the wrong direction! Track was crusting out dry on the edges in the dirt so it wasn't exactly a good track once the conditions/terrain changed.
Sometimes you have to trust your dogs but sometimes they have to trust you too.

[Alabama Cathunter]

South texas, You and I think alot a like. In alabama and fla. these cats will use a road lots like a redfox. I have seen a couple of catdogs that were so bad if you had a lose and the cat hit a road this gyp would come out and take the track any which way she could. sometimes right others wrong. but when she took it wrong you know what happen, She pulled all the other dogs with her then the cat had enough time to be in the next county. I hate that more than about anything I can think of. But when you run game that that is his first nature to double back on his track you will have a certain amount of it but I dont have much.

[al baldwin]

Liz your last sentence, times you must trust dogs & times they must trust you very correct. Should have did better job explaining my situation. That cat I wrote about had been back & forth in numerous places, had a skiff of snow, but it appeared the dogs had worked both directions different times, area I made decesion to pull dogs, did show dogs were backwards. Dog that jumped had only traveled short ways before jumping. Will also add hunting partner & I, often hunt bare ground with 9 dogs & have good luck most of the time with the pack turning them selfs around on back tracks. I hunt bare ground 99 of the time. Alabama I too have seen dogs that will flip a track on a lose in the middle of a jump, & dogs that makes that a habit I doubt can be changed. One good cat hunter in this area prefers dogs not turn tracks, he likes to make decesion when to turn them. Another sucessful late hunter in this area, told me he would not allow his dogs to work a track two directions. When the dogs went one direction & it didn,t work out he loaded them and looked for another track. Whatever works for you I guess Al

[twist]

Backtracking is a problem that needs corrected right away if a hound is allowed to do this the problem just gets worse as time goes on. The second you have determined the dog is going the wrong direction it needs corrected and a push of the tone button or a light buzz is usually all it takes, this can be allowed to happen a few times but after correcting and they have still not got the idea they need to be eliminated as a bobcat dog. I am one that hunts snow so its sure alot easier to know which way they are to go. Andy

[al baldwin]

Andy a good tracking snow can certainley allow you to correct right away. On this bareground we don,t have that advantage. if we destored every dog that took a back track, how would we ever get a dog with enough experience to be dependable to start bobcat only. Snow hunting is the only way I ever managed to catch 3 bobcat in one day & certainley has it,s advantages. Cat tracks here can be hard to come by and without broke dogs it would be real challenge to train young dogs or know what we are running. Also if you don,t have a bare ground cold trailer tracks are really going to be far and few between. So we just make do with the best we can find. There are a lot better cat hunters in this area than I & don,t know of any that have found a better method. Going to Florida or Texas where I read about all those big numbers of bobcat would be a dream come true. Have great day & keep hunting those nance hounds, as I told you as good 3 dog pack as I ever hunted with had a lot of nance in them, but they had the same struggles at times as the rest on this bare ground. Al

[twist]

Al, I am sure glad I dont have to do that dry ground style as I would be right with what you guys are doing. That is sure one advantage to snow it sure doesnt fib on what way the dogs need to be pointed. Andy

[Warner5]

Thank you for the responces. All great advice. Where I hunt and the dogs I hunt with, I expect to see some back tracking. I alway's just considered it just part of hunting. Running to many young dogs with the start dog always seemed to make it worse. Its a balance between training and catching I guess. I agree that stopping a problem sooner than later is a good idea, but simply turning the dogs around is a temporary fix. When I watch my young dogs working a track and notice its the wrong way, I will see a loss of interest for that direction by some of the dogs, they probably would have turned the track around if the lead back tracking dog was removed. Exposing that dog can be difficult but nessary. Find it and take its starting privilages away atleast for awile. For the most part I cannot fault younger hounds for following on a back track, they are just doing what they are trained to do. When in doubt follow the older or lead dog. Thank you for the discussion. John.

[George Streepy]

I would turn them around asap. I can't stand when dogs take a track backwards, especially after I had a dog that was very good at turning them around. I would have a hard time letting dogs go backwards hoping they run into a cat, seems like a waste of time to me. I sure do love the dogs that can turn tracks around. I had a dog that would bark every breath heading back when she figured out it was backwards. It would sound like she could see the cat, and every other dog would hustle to catch up. That dog caught a lot of cats.