Answers for Mr. Al Baldwin

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Al,

I will try to answer the two questions that you have for me.

Let me preface this with the thought that on the New Rules for the Bobcat section, prominently displayed will be the line that it is OK to disagree with some ones thoughts and Statements. We all have to base our Beliefs and Theories on our own experiences!

I am posting this as a separate thread so that it may be easier to retrieve from the Archives in the future, as I hope there will be some Great Responses from the Bobcat Hunters from the different Regions who Hunt different Types, Strains and Breeds of Hounds.

Also as you may have noticed there are literally Hundreds of Folks who read these Posts who never respond, many of whom are not Members of BGH. I would hope that You, Mr. Dewey, Twist, Second Nature or any of the other Cat Hunter/Houndsmen can possibly trigger some of the these Folks to participate with out the FEAR of being embarrassed by some Neophyte ridiculing them.

Mr. Al writes: “CJC enjoy & respect your point of view. And if guys can tell by the sound of the bark the track is backwards you are certainley a much better houndsman than I. Now if dogs bark less as the track advances I certainley get suspecious.”

What I was trying to describe is when the Hounds are speaking on a Track and it might not be right, Dad listens closely to which Hounds are Speaking and the Sound of how they are opening. Are the Notes Flat, do they sound hesitant in their Speaking, are the Young Hound Hounds opening more than the Old Hounds. These and other very subtle SOUNDS are what can tell you that either the Hounds are BACKTRACKING or on OFF Game.

The Houndsman who has raised his or her’s Hounds, Hunts them more than 3 times a week, in all conditions GENERALLY can tell if things are not right!

We have seen this in the Circle of Houndsmen that we know from Texas to Virginia. These Houndsmen can tell almost instantly when something just does not sound RIGHT!(the Virginians can quickly tell if their Hounds are running a Red Fox, Bobcat, or Grey Fox just from the manner of Speaking the Hounds are doing)

These Folks all operate on the premises that Mr. Ben Hardoway expressed “It is better to knock the Hounds off of the correct Game 12 times rather than let them RIOT on Off Game Once”!

Backtracking would be worse than Off Game in our Book!

Mr. Al writes: “I will ask a question if a bobcat walks 1/2 mile thru a brush patch, hits a frozen road and walks straight the road for 1/2 mile. You come down that road, 2 hrs later,the dogs strike the track, what end of that track is going to hold the most track scent?”

Well Mr. Al, here in Florida, Frozen roads are not something we have to deal with. In Arkansas sometimes, but it does not seem to cause either Dad’s or Glen’s Hounds problems.

But let me give you a similar scenario we and the other Cat Hunters face across the Southeast.

An Ole Cat gets up out of its Bed several hundred yards out in a Clear Cut (re-prods are what David tells us you all call them in Oregon). This Cat stretches and eases out to a Grassy haul road and heads north, along the way he comes to a mudhole with a Big Juicy Bullfrog. The Cat pounces on it for and appetizer getting wet. The Cat then travels on North a short way and comes to a large wide Crushed Linestone covered road. He stops, sits and ponders which way to travel to find that tasty Swamp Rabbit that will fill his tummy for a day or two.

While he is sitting there he feels his Bowels need to move, so he deposits yesterdays Field Rat there at the junction of the Grassy haul road and the Big Limestone Road. Then he heads East right into a 5 mph East wind.

Well along comes the Clay’s with Corkey, Choctaw and Rivers on top of the Dog Box rigging. Just as we get to the Intersection of these two roads the ENTIRE Box Explodes with Hounds Barking. Down go the Rig Dogs!

Now where will the Scent-Smell of the Bobcat be stronger?

East up that Limestone covered road, or back South along the Grassy road where the damp Bobcat had just come up. The Scent is almost overwhelming to the Hounds at the intersection. The Cat has sat there for several minutes, he has defecated.

How will the Hounds work this out?

This is why we only put down the Rig Hounds, too many Cooks in the kitchen can ruin the Stew.

Now there is NO way that the Hounds are not going to Bark on that Grassy road, but a very short distance will tell these Hounds that this ain’t right. Then it is East and West to try to get the smell correct. Most of the time these Hounds will get enough smell in the Air or Hanging on the surrounding vegetation to DRIFT the Track the correct way till they find where the Cat turned out of the road.

These Hounds spend very little time with their Nose’s on the Ground. Mostly they have their Heads 8 to 12 inches off the ground, Corky and Creek will have theirs even higher. We feel that this allows them to get a more accurate sense of Smell, thus preventing going the wrong way.

Now I am going to venture into territory that may ruffle a few feathers…but that is OK.

Mr. Al, in the other threads you and David were listing the Royalty of the Treeing Walker Treedog world. These are truly Great Hounds for what Traits that they are Bred for. Strong Noses, Tenacity, Hard Treeing ability….but these traits may be what is contributing to the problems that sometimes arise.

We know of lots of Folks who have tried to be successful in South Texas and across the Southeast with a Treedog based Pack. The main draw back that these fellows have experienced is that these Hounds have that STRONG Nose, and Tenacity. These Hounds just do not want to give up on a Track that they smell strongly in one place. When a loose is made, they want to keep going back and Bark where the last place they smelled the Cat, instead of reaching out to see where the Cat has gone.

Hanging up on a Track and Backtracking were the main problems these Hunters experienced. One of these men after 10 years and spending many thousands of Dollars went to Running Walkers and became much more successful. His favorite quote was “while I loved my TW’s Noses, their Noses were bigger than their Brains”!

I hope these thoughts are able to clarify my earlier statements and that they do not tick too many Folks off! I look forward to other Folks giving their thoughts and experiences!

[sourdough]

First off Mr. Clay, I would like to say that it is nice to see you back on this site… Your input on BGH has been very informative and a real pleasure to read. There are several real cat hunters on this site that have added some great conversation and insight into the world of bobcat hunting. With the addition of men like Al Baldwin this bobcat section has become more fascinating to me as well as other hunters that come here to discuss their thoughts and opinions on trail hounds vs. running dogs and why each has their place in the different arenas of our sport. My hope is the same as yours that those that post understand that this venue is for the exchange of ideas and something to learn from. Not a place to be narcissistic or ego centric. Even those with a good foundation of this sport can pick up something from other they may not have known or ever even thought about.

Thanks,

sourdough

[slowandeasy]

Mr. Clay, good to see you are back on. as for this subject i'm afraid you might talk untill you are blue in the face and just get smart a$$ replys. because most already know it all and think they can't learn anymore. i have tried to tell people in the past if you pay close attention you can tell alot of what is goin on by the way each hound sounds. but have pretty much given up trying to share those kind of things. it is nice to see real good dog men once in a while. as for a large percentage, someone will also let them in on a little secret that you only stop learning when they throw the last shovel of dirt on ya! Take care!

[al baldwin]

CJC Thanks for answering my question. Did not mean to offend you. Yes I can read my hounds voice on some things. But certainly not well enought to realize they are backwards before they have traveled 50 yds. Still very hard for me to believe there is pack or any dog that has not taken a track backwards more than 50 yds before turning the track. Ihave hunted with a couple hunters who hunted thier packs more than three days a week & they were very good packs that sure caught lots of game, but were not that perfect turning as fast as your hounds. You have not offended me by discussion the short comeings of tree bred hounds on bobcat. However there have been some very good bobcat hounds in this area that were tree hound bred. Have never been hung up on any particular breed. Have hunted with mixed tree& running dog packs & noticed each had thier short comings. You may not realize it but you can come across as being arrogant at times yourself & maybe rightfully so with # of cats you catch each year. that is just my opinion and we are all have one. One can only write from thier experience, I accept you have hounds that are that good& commend your dad for breeding such fine hounds. Will close by say that one of those tree dogs was a Mcdonald Black&tan crossed on a smokey river blue that needed no help to tree most cat. My friend Robin Powell hunted with him and told me he was as good as he seen. Do you think you could take any one of your hounds and consistently tree bobcat in this terrain & big timber. Not a question ment to offend , shoulld just be educational to all? Thanks Al Baldwin

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Al,

There is no way that we would ever try to take "1" of Dad's Hounds to try and Tree or Catch a Bobcat...there in your Country, or any where else.

Have any of them done this? Yes several times over the years. They were Pop Ups and Lay Ups.

Now the other side of the coin is that there is not ANY 1 Hound Anywhere who can come to the Pine Forest of the Southeast and CONSISTANTLY catch or tree a Bobcat.

We have and will continue to offer to put you or anyone else up, feed that person and their Hound and refund your gas money if, in a week of Hunting that Hound can Tree or catch more than 1 Bobcat.

Sorry for coming across as Arrogant...certainly did not mean to...tried to be Politically Correct. As Ole David can attest I have strongly edited this from how Dad would have said it!

[al baldwin]

John appreicate your reply. Not to blow my horn, I never had anything to do with breeding, training or hunting that old black&tan& smokey river, but he is still notorous amongest the local cat hunters. There was some with running stock that wanted to test his ability that came away with a huge appreication for that hound. Owner very humble hunter, sure he would have never told anyone this. Assure you a bunch that old hound treed were not pop ups. JC,S dad also owned a female that needed no help to catch some tough bobcat. Believe JC has been trying to replace her for a long time & best of my knowledge she was tree dog bred. Say that because came from a male I bought and a female owned by Renee Sears. The female came from Willi sutton breeding cross to the late Lloyd Bassey breeding. The male I bought was never SURE who his sire was, didn/t matter I hunted alot & when he was for sale I jump on it. Before every thinks I bought all my dogs will say most always when I bought a dog I sold one that I had trained to replace the money. ( WIFE/S RULE) TELL YOUR DAD WOULD LIKE TO SHAKE HIS HAND AND HUNT WITH HIS HOUNDS. Thanks Al Baldwin

[twist]

This discussion show that for sure it takes different hounds in different parts of the country to be sucessful at catching the old wily bobcat it isnt that the cat smell different just different conditions and terrian. Also everyone seems to have a little different hunting style, as long as it works for you that is all that matters. Andy

[fox hunter]

what i have seen liveing in diferrent areas and hunting east and west is that the country you live in will generally dictate the type of dog you use. on the coast i had a pack of mostly heavy running dog blood that was a little warmer nosed and tight mouthed but usualy had one good tree dog with them for locateing in the big timber. up north wear i am now ive gone to more of a tree hound style because of the different trailing conditions and because the cats dont run as hard. the running dog style hear dont want to tree as well i think because the cats dont run hard enough to run the dogs down they are still wound tight when most of theses cats tree.with that being said i have seen great individual cat dogs in most areas of both styles, but generaly speaking i think each region has a type of dog that over all will consistantly perform better.

[Dads dogboy]

Fox Hunter

Very Well Said!

Each region has some one who has BRED a Strain of Hounds that will excel on the Short Tails unique to the Habitat that they are Hunted in!

Mr. Pete Richardson and Jason Waterhouse have Hounds who get it done in New England.

Second Nature and Spruce Mountain catch their share with those Nice Englich Hounds in the North woods of Maine.

Mr. Bud Denny, Cat and Bear, Dan Mcdonough (sp) and some others make it tough on the Pumpkin Heads in MN and WI.

Ole Twist gets his share with those nice Nance Hounds in the Mountains of MT>

JC, Tim Pitman, Mr. Dewey and others have Bred Hounds who harvest plenty in Oregon.

CA has several Good Houndsmen/Hunters who have Strains that are very proficient at Catching and Treeing Bobcat and Grey Fox.

In VA, NC, and SC Jim Modlin, Charlie Curlin, Glen Willoughby, and Toddy Smith and others each have the kind of Hound to get it done and with Style.

Each uses Hounds that are UNIQUE to their Region with the Special Skills needed in their Environment!

[newby]

As my username implies, obviously I'm not an expert, therefore I don't have a reputation to uphold or protect, so I can afford to ask a stupid question and not worry about people thinking less of me. Question is, why does it seem that the bobcat has "evolved" to such an extreme measure in each different sub-climate, hence "requiring" such different types of hounds to catch them consistently whereas if you have a good bear dog in SC, you'll probably have a good bear dog in North ID? Or if you can tree coons in OR, you can probably consistently tree coons most other places. I know these are different animals and they have more scent etc..., but it just strikes me as odd that no other area of hound hunting has so much debate about what kind of dog it takes to catch game consistently than cat-hunting.

[david]

Question is, why does it seem that the bobcat has "evolved" to such an extreme measure in each different sub-climate, hence "requiring" such different types of hounds to catch them consistently whereas if you have a good bear dog in SC, you'll probably have a good bear dog in North ID? Or if you can tree coons in OR, you can probably consistently tree coons most other places. I know these are different animals and they have more scent etc..., but it just strikes me as odd that no other area of hound hunting has so much debate about what kind of dog it takes to catch game consistently than cat-hunting.

I guess you know my opinion on the subject, but in case there are newer people to the board, here is what I posted July 11 2011. It addresses Newby's question:

page 1:The Overkill Analysis

There are a few considerations with bobcat dogs that we don’t have to worry about with coon dogs. One of them is the specific regional needs we find in the bobcat dogs. It seems that every region, climate zone and topography could benefit greatly by having its’ own customized bobcat dog. A great coon dog is a great coon dog just about anywhere in the USA. Why the difference?

There are several reasons why a great bobcat dog in one region might not make a great bobcat dog in another region. One reason is a difference in bobcat sub species. They run differently and the track ends differently. In some areas bobcats will circle at times. In other areas they rarely if ever do. In some areas bobcats will climb trees readily and feel secure enough to stay there. In other areas bobcats rarely climb trees. Or they climb readily, but never feel secure in the tree and leave it if given the chance. This can also be because of a difference in the available trees. But some areas have thousands of trees including large conifers, and bobcats there would rather die than to climb a tree. For each of these situations, different finishing skills are needed in a dog.

Another reason for customized bobcat dogs is widely divergent climate. The great dogs of the South and Southwest sometimes don’t have enough hair to do well in the bitter cold of the North woods. A desert dog may need different tracking abilities than a snow dog or a rainforest dog.

But behind these reasons is a more foundational reason: many of our good bobcat dogs are just barely able to catch a bobcat. I will say it again, just in case you missed that: Many of our good bobcat dogs are just barely able to catch a bobcat. It would be hard to know this though since they catch them regularly. That is, they catch them regulary when the six factors are kept in balance.

The Six Factors
Consider these six points toward a cohesive bobcat hunt: 1) We find a dog that has the right combination of genetic traits for the given region and subspecies of bobcat. 2) We give that dog the correct amount of training and opportunity. 3) We make sure the dog is in good athletic condition, good health, and is stable emotionally. 4) We put the dog in the right weather, scenting conditions and topography. 5) We put that dog with just the perfect team mate or mates. 6) A solid relationship of trust exists between handler and dog, and the handler makes all the right handling decisions. Then, if we are lucky, we catch a certain percentage of the bobcats we put the dog on. The percentage of caught bobcats will be dictated by variations in any of the factors but especially in the level of giftedness of the dog and of the handler.

Most good bobcat dogs are always just on the verge of not catching a bobcat. If any one or two of the six factors listed above does not line up just right, we probably won’t get our bobcat.

Now if one of the factors goes off the chart in the favorable range, it might make up for a couple factors in the negative range. For example, factor #4: if we have soft snow up to the dogs’ chest and a favorable barometer and humidity, it puts factor #4 off the charts in the dogs’ favor. It may make up for the fact that the dog is not genetically gifted enough to catch a bobcat in less favorable conditions. It may even make up for a lack of training. In fact, with factor #4 that far off the charts on the favorable side, it may just make up for negative readings on all other factors. It could be our lucky day with Old Slow Moe.

Here is another example of the same principle. Let’s say factors 1 and 6 are extremely strong. The dog is super gifted genetically; he has a good relationship with his handler who is also gifted at making all the right choices in a hunt. They might just overcome weaknesses in factors 2, 3, 4, and 5, add a teaspoon of luck and catch a bobcat.

But all things being equal, we are looking for a decent score in all six factors. We are looking for predictable consistency instead of good luck.

Coon Catching Overkill (EF1O)
Compare this with coon dogs. There are many strains of coon dog that require very little training except to teach them what animals not to hunt. Then, just hunt them a lot. There are many strains where a young dog might tree coon his very first time to the woods. Coon dogs often tree many raccoons in one hunt. You can take a really good coon dog out on most any night, in any type of weather, and in any part of the country where coon live and tree coon. For a really good coon dog it doesn’t matter if he is alone or with bad company or good company, he is still going to tree coon. One reason for this is the coon dog has a lot of overkill for the job of treeing a coon. He is way off the charts on factor 1: genetic ability for the job at hand. He can overcome extremely negative readings on some of the other factors. The poor innocent coon dog has: EF1O (Extreme Factor 1 Overkill).

An example of a lot of overkill would be shoveling the snow off your sidewalk with a D-9 bulldozer. Another example would be hauling a small tent trailer with a Peterbilt 387 Semi Tractor. In either case, they could get the job done. But they have a lot more power than is needed to do the job. They have so much extra power that it might even make things look a little ridiculous.

I feel the same is true of coon dogs. Think of McKenzie River Banjo. He was bred from coon dogs only. There is not one bear dog in his ancestry that I know of. That dog would stay out running or treeing on a bear for over 24 hours. It might be 48 hours before he would ever show up on a road. What coon hunt in the whole world would ever require that kind of stamina and desire? It is a tremendous amount of overkill. The strange thing is, he still had that deep, deep heart of desire from his foxhound ancestors, but he no longer had the physical conformation of the fox hound. His mind was driving his body into oblivion. It took days for him to recover his voice and begin to look like he was strong again. It didn’t matter to him though. Put him on another track the next day and he would give the same heart he gave when he was fresh.

Anything Beyond the Minimum Needed
Let’s consider something easily measured like size. How big does a dog need to be to be able to tree raccoon? Well, I myself have hunted with a little feist of 15 pounds that had no trouble at all treeing a coon. Fighting a 30 pound coon might have proven difficult, yet probably no more difficult than a 60 pound dog fighting a 120 pound bear. So if 15 pounds is our minimum weight needed to tree a coon, then a 55 pound dog has 40 pounds of overkill. If we could quantify the abilities such as speed, barks per minute on the tree, stamina, drive, and so forth; the coon dog has about 40 pounds of overkill in every single department in my opinion.

Conformation Lost
I feel this is why the coonhounds’ conformation has become so sloppy compared to the foxhounds from which they came. They are never driven to the point of breaking down physically when their job is treeing raccoons. Therefore, physical imperfections are never noticed or corrected. I see a fox hound standing at ease on its’ chain, and it looks like the finest coon hound that has been pinched posed pushed and shaped by its’ nervous bench show handler. For the fox dog, physical imperfections will show up immediately when the dog breaks down and is unable to keep up day after day.
So, you can see a problem with overkill in the physical conformation of the coon hound. Look at the amazing conformation of some of the tiny squirrel dogs. They don’t have as much overkill. Because of their small size they must be tight built and very athletic or they will not be able to do their job.

Maximum power is something that must be watched over and tested to its’ limits or it will diminish. “Use it or Loose it” as the saying goes. That, in my opinion, is one reason why most coonhounds do not make top bobcat dogs. It is not the only reason, but it is one of them.

Balanced on the Edge
Most decent bobcat dogs I have known have little or no overkill. If they use every resource they have to their maximum ability, they just might catch a bobcat. That is why it is hard to successfully move them to a new region or to a new handler, or put them with unfamiliar dogs. If any one of the six points described above does not line up, you suddenly go from a solid bobcat dog to a dog that cannot catch a bobcat.

Have you ever heard someone say “I’m going crazy, but it’s a short trip.”? Well, the trip from being a decent bobcat dog to a dog that cannot catch a bobcat is a very short trip. Most bobcat dogs I have known were always on the edge of not being able to do their job. I have moved some amazingly good bobcat dogs from one region to another, and they never again caught a bobcat unless taken back to their home region. I am not talking about an adjustment period and then they did OK. I am talking about years in their new location, and they never again caught a bobcat. The six factors never again lined up for that dog in that location with that handler. Who would have known those dogs were always on the edge of not being able to do their job?

I have never seen anything like that with a good coon dog. They are never perched so dangerously close to the edge of not being able to do their job. They are miles away from it, and will never fall over that edge until they just get too old to walk through the woods safely. EF1O: Extreme Factor 1 Overkill; Genetic excess for the job at hand.

[david]

page 2:

Olympic Athletes and MMF
Consider an Olympic Athlete. Each athlete has the goal and dream of winning the gold medal in their event. They are sent to the Olympics because they have the potential of winning. They are sitting on the edge of making it happen. If all the factors line up for them just as the six cohesive hunt factors line up for the dog, they just might win. But they are always only one or two factors away from not winning. It is the same for the bobcat dog. Bobcat hunting with dogs in my experience is the Olympics of hunting with the locating tree dog. It is not a competition in the same sense, but it is very much the complete test of a dog.

In serious weight lifting, the muscles are pushed to the point of failure. Some call it MMF: momentary muscle failure. There is no way to know the outer limits of strength unless pushed to the point of failure.

Some years I have coon hunted all night and into the day nearly every day for a month or more. I still have never seen a coon dog pushed to the point of physical or emotional failure. Therefore, I never discovered the outer limits of the coon dogs’ strength and ability. Every bobcat dog I have ever hunted has been pushed to the point of failure: physical failure, mental failure, emotional failure. I knew exactly how strong they were. Those I experienced that came directly from coonhound stock were not strong enough in some areas.

Now, the whole point of pushing to MMF (momentary muscle failure) in weight lifting is to stress the muscle. Then, when it repairs itself, it is larger or stronger or has more stamina. Now, let’s consider a dog that is genetically close to the edge of being able to do his job as a bobcat dog. If that dog is pushed to the point of failure enough, eventually, he might be able to climb up and over that edge into the realm of doing his job. For most dogs I have seen in this category, it can take working them hard until somewhere after their second birthday. It will vary greatly according to the genetic giftedness of the dog, giftedness of his trainer, and the amount of opportunity given.


Let me repeat one sentence: “There is no way to know the outer limits of strength unless pushed to the point of failure”. Put another way: there is no way to know a dogs’ weaknesses until he is pushed to the point of MMF. (I am speaking of momentary muscle failure, or momentary mental failure or momentary motion failure or any other point where a dog might reveal his weakness in a necessary trait). There are many breeders who do not know what their dogs’ weak spots are. I know this for a fact. We must find ways to test our dogs fully and know them fully before we breed.

. Supercali Fragilistic ExpialiCatdog?
Are there any bobcat dogs whose abilities could be seen as overkill for bobcat hunting? Yes, there are some. Maybe not when considered as a whole and complete package. But I know of dogs whose abilities in certain areas exceed those needed to catch bobcat. One example of this is the Running Walker fox and coyote hound converted to bobcat dog. Those competition Walkers can run 12-15 miles an hour for eight hours a day for several days in a row. That kind of speed and stamina is overkill for any single bobcat race. It would be nice to have for the marathon weeks of hunting though. They have weaknesses in other areas, yet in this trait they posses overkill.

There very well could be dogs which, taken as a complete package, are overkill for bobcat. The treeing gray fox dogs of some regions may be exactly this. I do not have enough personal experience with them to make this evaluation. There may be others also. If there are, those who hunt them are not talking very loud.

[al baldwin]

David don,t know quite what to say after reading that post. So will just say I suspect A good tough bobcat hound, that is balanced, able to stirike, cold trail, pick his head up & run with enought speed to break the cat pace, should be able to tree cats most any place, providing the dog can also locate & bark treed enought for the hunter to find him. That sounds simple but can be very hard to come by. Now this is just my opinion & certainly not ment to offend any. However sure when moving from one state to the next one would expect to give the dog time to adjust. Sure not saying it going to work every time, Thanks Al Baldwin

[Warner5]

A bobcat will go to where it feels safest. In timber country, tall limby tree's surrounded by stunted limby brushed up tree's make them feel safe. But in very heavy brush area's. Draws filled with Salmon berry, Manzanita or rhododendron, growing over through and around 3' to 8' through, old growth wind falls. Cats will hole up on or under a mess like this feeling safest in the dense cover. They will not come out unless pushed out. Lose a cat in this stuff a few times and it may never tree again. It all comes down to where a cat calls home. When an area gets hunted hard with good experienced cat dogs, the easy cats or good ground cats get taken. In area's like this we get left with what we call trainer cats ( hound hunters way of saying, I probably cant catch this cat but were gonna give it hell). These trainer cats always have a couple hell hole's near by, just to get started and know them very, very well. A hunter needs more than a good jump to get these cats. Running dogs? Tree dogs? I cant tell anyone what works best for them? Around here a blend of the two. Walking the line between treeing and running dog. That might give a hunter the best chance at a true cat dog(for here)? But there are exceptions and other way's. It takes a keen eye, looking for all the right traits that blended together at the right time. A special dog is needed to catch these tough cats. It makes the difference between just chasing and catching a hell hole cat. Having a dog that has the ability to out cat a cat on his turf 30% of the time is rare.(on his turf Guy's). A life long cat man may only see a few of these dogs if he's lucky. That kind of a dog is appreciated every where, It doesn’t really matter where we call home. I have a feeling we can all agree on that. I have been fortunate enough to have raised two of these gifted dogs but they were still far from perfect.(and I don’t have one as we speak) Thank you for reading sorry so windy. John

[al baldwin]

jOHN DANG GOOD POST. AND I JUST FIGURED OTHERS WOULD KNOW ANY TOUGH CAT IS GOING TO FORCE THAT HOUND TO BE ABLE TO GET THRU LOOSES & KEEP ENOUGHT PRESSURE TO WIND THE CAT. CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO CATCH THEM ALL, & IF WE COULD WHAT WOULD BE LEFT TO RUN? SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED YOUR TALKER DOG HAS ONE WHO COULD CATCH SOME TOUGH ONES. THINK HE WAS BRED BY THE LATE Lloyd Bassey. And Lloyd certainly caught his share of cats. There have been numerous other hunters who owned a hound that could catch some tough cats alone. And often when that dog was gone, discovered the couple others they owned were not very productive without that dog. Myself included. Again just my experiencs & opinion & NOT MENT TO OFFEND ANYONE tHANKS Al Baldwin