The Legends??? Lets see what is Fact and what is Legend!

[Dads dogboy]

Folks this thread came about to my pondering a Post by Catdog 360 in witch he wrote what some will feel are disparaging remarks about the Lee brothers. He then said that his two heroes were his Father and Ben Lilly.

Now I applaud any one who recognizes that while in most cases they are not perfect, our Fathers are darn sure HEROES!

Ben Lilly, well I am not so sure I would ever want to call him a Hero. When I hear his name I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite John Ford/John Wayne movies. This one stared the Duke, Jimmy Stewart, and Lee Marvin – “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence”. At the end of the movie when the Newspaper editor had the true story at last from Senator Jimmy Stewart (the man who had supposedly shot the notorious Outlaw Liberty Valence), the editor tore his notes off the notebook, threw them into the pot belly stove, and said to the Senator that when “The Legend is a better story than the Facts, Print the Legend!” No where is this truer than with Mr. Lilly!

As a Single Focused Hunter, there has probably been very few to top him; but as a Responsible Man, not so much. At various times he left his Families, Business endeavors, Hunting Associates and Clients to “Follow the Hawk”(see the tale from J. Frank Dobies “Legend of Ben Lilly”) what ever the “Hawk” was at the time.

There are several good Books out about Lilly and most try to show his Warts as well as his accomplishments. The book “The Big Thicket Legacy” is a place to go to get a True look a Lilly as a Hunter in the company of other good Hunters. In the shadow of these local Hunter/Houndsmen he appears to be an also ran.

We were fortunate (when I was a very young kid, who was Seen and not Heard in the early 1960s, riding with Dad) to Hunt with Stan Warren in the Big Thicket of Texas. Stan was a Houndsman 1st class, bred his own Hounds and caught lots of Cat, yet never hunted more than 100 miles from home, usually less than 30.

When he was a kid Ben was still in the Thicket and hunted with the Warrens and their Friends. His story was Ben never raised any Hounds, just hunted what folks gave him. His knack, Skill if you will was that he was in the woods all the time and studied his quarry till he knew its habits, then would find the Varmint’s hot Track and sick his Hounds on it.

Mr. Warren said that as far as he could remember Ben Lilly never had a Broke Hound/Dog and did not want one. If he found a Bear, Hog, Lion, Big Buck, Fat Doe, Wild Cow or Bull, or whatever, he wanted his Hounds/Dogs to run it and run it to catch it.

Friends of ours who grew up in the new Mexico country Ben Lilly habited in his later years say that the locals remember Ben as not changing much from his Big Thicket Days. He hunted what ever Hounds/Dogs he acquired in the area he was hunting. The Legend of the Lilly Hounds ever being bred is just that. I can find NO documented evidence that he ever Bred Hounds with a Plan or that he even raised many on his own. He would maybe breed a Female at a ranch and get a pup or just get some pups ready to start from ranchers in the area he hunted. Reading about his habits of hunting, traveling, camping wherever the Track took him certainly would make raising Pups a challenge.

One credible story has it that a young fellow was hauling supplies in to Ben and when he got to Ben’s camp, ole Ben was doctoring Hounds as he had caught a Bad Bear and had lost some Hounds as well as the injured. Ben told the young man that when he came back to bring him some more Hounds. The fellow asked where he should get them; Ben replied ask around see what the Dog catcher in the City has that looks like it might would work. The fellows family was headed to the City in a few days and he was able to get several Hounds/Dogs there and some from ranchers to take to Ben.

Ben apparently could be a bit of a Scoundrel at times. One story is that when he was catching Lions he would take the Hides to several Ranchers and collect the bounty from each for the same Cat. They caught on and started making Ben leave the Hide when they paid him.

Anyway just some things we have found out researching him. A dedicated devoted Hunter no doubt. Mr. Mike Leonard, I believe said on another Post that today Ben would be diagnosed as an “Idiot Savant”. I am not sure what that is but Ole Ben certainly was a Character……Hero…..well I am not so sure.

Google Books about Ben Lilly, there are several out there besides the Dobie book. A good one is by Hibbon. Here is a link to some good Lilly info:

www.sonsofsavages.blogspot.com/2010/06/ben-lilly.html

Let’s see what others have found out about some of the Legends?

[dwalton]

I like the post. I think legends are made from good stories someone has told. Which sometimes have little to do with what happen. In my younger days I tried to visit or talk to all of the big name lion hunters of that time most were just men that had great knowledge of hunting and were able to hunt a lot. That in it self says a lot to me. Dewey

[al baldwin]

C. John I sure don,t know fact from fiction about Ben Lilly or Lee Brothers. But sure know all had to be a lot tougher , better hunters than I. A local hunter & a tough one at that, order a english looking male pup from the Lee Brothers, he made a hound that caught bobcat and pleased his owner. Owner told me the male never reproduced a good hound.I later read in FullCry, I think, that the Lee Brothers also often obtained hounds from various sources. If they worked out fine if not they would not feed culls. Another surprise, once talked to a breeder, advertising Wagner B&T. In my questions about what traits to expect in those dogs. That breeder stated that Wagner often bred dogs with a wide range of traits & sometimes not dogs he would have bred. Sure don,t know if that is fact or fiction. Do know once was offered as a gift a young 5 month old hound of uncertain lineage, I did not take. Another young hunter took the gift, that hunter accompied me the first time he took that young hound to the woods & I realized, what a mistake I made not taking that hound. Couple years I bought that hound used him in my breeding & some others in this area, (after hunting with that hound bred to him) he sure produced dogs that caught cat, tough hard hunting offspring that some sure liked. For me the offspring were too tight mouth on track, others thought them just right. One very good old timer had a son of his that he told me was the real deal. Sad, someone stole that hound & to this day sure would hate to be that thief, if George discovered who stoled his dog. As always tried to trace lineage before breeding to that hound, mother was suppose to be B& T, walker cross. Best could find that was Wagner B&t. Sire was suppose to be full walker, not sure which brother sired Rowdy. Odd thing was Rowdy threw a couple blue ticks each time he sired. Alittle off subject, but sometimes good hounds come from where hunters find them. JC sure you realized this is the hound that sired your Dads Kelly female, your Cindy female, My Pusher male & George,s Buck hound that was stolen. Just a little history that will entertain some I hope. And not intended to be an example of how to bred your hounds. And certainly not meant to take anything away from Mr. Finney & all others who have line bred such fine hounds. Thanks Al Baldwin

[George Streepy]

Most of us look up to our fathers and for some it is misguided and for some rightfully so. This topic has had me thinking of a lot more than hounds, and left me wondering where my father falls into the hero category in my eyes. He is a decorated war veteran who when asked why he received his metals, replies he was a scared kid that didn't trust any one else to guard the base. He saved nearly all his money earned in Vietnam to purchase the property I was raised on. Dedicated himself to his profession, earning awards for his accomplishments year after year. He made most all of the baseball, basketball, and football games as his children grew up. He had a bit of a short fuse and wasn't afraid to use a belt on us from time to time, but I am certain I had it easier than he did growing up. He wouldn't take a nickel that he didn't earn. He came to work for my company a few years ago, to be somewhat semi-retired, but puts in 50+ hours a week. His work ethic is outstanding and even with arthritis will work circles around the guys half his age. I suppose he is my hero, I should probably show him that every now and again.

The way I see it, I most likely only have two shots to become a hero. Something tells me the amount of cats I catch in my life won't be what does it. The stories told about hound hunters of the past, would have to get pretty darn good for me to find them my hero.

[Big N' Blue]

I liked the post and the replys. George, Glad you have such a great father. I was blessed with one also! The legends of the past are just that, legends. I am sure that the stories over the years have been embellished to protect the innocent however that does not take away the need for normal people to have someone they respect to look up too.
Great hunters get to spend most of their lives in the woods, something that most of us will never be able to do.
Keep some more answers posted. Like to see other peoples thoughts on this.

David Sudduth

[twist]

George, great post. Hands down only hero and legend I knew was my Dad. For all that still have their Dad do give them a pat on the back and a big huge or hand shake as once they are gone you will wish you would have done this more. As my dad has been gone for 19 yrs and as I look back its amazing how much he knew and I thought I knew. Andy

[fargo]

My father was one that never had much but he put a roof over 7 kids and we all had food and clothes to wear. He also put a belt to us. But I still hug him and think he is the best Dad there is. I grew up with the mixture of dogs when we could afford to have them. For me being born in Ohio and staying close to my roots and around coon hunting was my first love. Untill Full Cry come along and the days reading about the adventures of these people and it boils down to a boy having dreams of camping in the wilderness with the hounds curled up in a bed of leaves. and let's face it at one point we all didn't care what is was just as long as it looked like a hound we were happy. But we grow and form our own opinions and what we want changes. These people lived during a time that was still wild and if you hunted everyday for most of the year and didn't catch something you would be mighty hungry. The almighty dollar is what turned them into so called legends. And my age has taught me that and as it will for the up and coming. But you won't change what is already wrote in black and white. And age has taught me numbers are not what is important but family and doing right is. and that is what I teach my kids. That was 40 odd years ago of me being a kid but I still dream of being out there with the hounds troting along and riding a ridge watching and waiting for the lead dog to throw his head in the air and letting out a cry that says game on. For those of you that have the access to this life style don't take it for granted. now a days everything is so guarded and so afraid of being backstabbed again nothing is for free and the dollar is what determines alot of things in this world. Even legends

[Big N' Blue]

Very well sais Twist and Fargo. I wish every day that i could talk to my Mom and Dad.
I have truly been blessed to have known some of the great houndmen of the past and have ridden with many of them. Am very sad that many are gone, but it speaks well for them that they are still remembered!

David Sudduth

[catdog360]

I guess I got your goat Mr. Clay. It was a little tongue in cheek on the Ben Lilly part. He was a nut job. Wandered around talking to the animals. But truly my dad is my hero. He took me hound hunting the night I came home from the hospital 35 years ago and has been my mentor and only hunting partner since. He may never hold the reputation as others in these parts but at 69 years old still is there when I need him and hunts 5 days a week with me or alone. He has bred our line of hounds since the 60snight and I hope I have many more years with him as my partner.

Mic Obrien

[Dads dogboy]

Mic (Catdogs 360),

Great Post!

You did not get my Goat as I was pretty sure from your comments about the Lee Bros that you knew enough about Ben Lilly to KNOW enough about Ben Lilly.

Our Dad's are truly wear we came from, and those of us that still have them are truly Blessed. Sometimes they can be a bit of a trial, but I can look back on my Sisters and I growing up, and understand why Dad has no hair and Mom’s is all white.

What your Post did was allow us to have another Great Campfire to sit around and learn more about each other!

THANKS!

I hope that you live in the NW and that we get to meet you in Powers, OR Labor Day Weekend, if not you are welcome at our Fire here in AR or FL anytime!

[twist]

Mic, great to hear that your sisters where the blame of all the no hair or gray hair in your parents as I now believe thats the reason my parents both had gray hair also Andy

[cowboy32]

Hey Dad's Dogboy, where you be located at down there in Arkansas. I grew up over near Sheridan and used to run coon dogs all around central and south Arkansas.

[sourdough]

I have to say that reading the tails of Ben Lilly as a kid brought emotion and feelings of wonder, a time past, a time we will never experience in this modern world. To me it read like a romance novel, a place where a person could get lost in time, a time of real freedom.
Ben Lilly a “hero?” Well, the way I look at his life, “hero” never comes to mind. His life reads like a well written dime store novel, where the lowly aspects of his life were somewhat omitted to sell as many copies as possible. I can’t say that being free to follow my hounds with just my rifle and bed roll, wandering this country and living off the land does not appeal to me, after all, it is our rugged individualism that makes us Americans.
Each one of us writes our own story in life. I am proud to be the son of my parents and I hope to my own children that they have pride in me. Should I die tomorrow, I would rather my head stone read loving husband and father than famous lion and bear hunter.

sourdough

[LarryBeggs]

Well put Sourdough.

[Big N' Blue]

Well put Sourdough.

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